Watts Threshold

[M-Mittlesteadt]

Everyone has different gigging tone and volume goals given their own situation with the music/bands they play in.

I was one of the first to build Greenboy's fEARful 15/6 cabs. At that time I also was designing and building my own cabs as well. I was playing in a very loud rock cover band and was running usually 800 to 1200 watts amps/heads.

Back then I wanted efficient speakers/cabs but also thought I needed a ton of clean power. I took a hiatus from music for a bit and sold all my bass gear. Coming back to music this past year, I realized that I no longer needed to be loud, but wanted the ability if need be.

I bought a couple of new combos (used separately or chained together). Each one is rated at 100 watts into a 112 cab. Each combo only weighs 22 lbs. as I need more lightweight gear. While I've always known we seldom (if ever), are throwing all the watts we might have available into our cabs and the volume output is more a matter of speaker efficiency than watts.

I still see a lot of threads where people already have their own idea as to how many watts they feel they need to gig with their band, but seldom ask (or know) how efficient their cabs are.

My two combos together can put out 200 watts total into two efficient 112 speakers/cabs (100 watts per cab) and it easily holds its own against two guitarists (one with a Fender Twin), loud drummer, and keyboards, and my rig isn't anywhere near full volume output. I know I'm not even using the full 100 watts per amp (combo). I seldom play with these guys and don't really like loud stage volume, but my little rig holds it's own, quite easily in fact, when needed.

So watt is everyone's idea of how many watts they need? What's your bottom, lowest wattage threshold you'd gig with? And why?

Just a thought for discussion.

 

[JimmyM]

I need at least 25w.

 

[Redbrangus]

... my rig isn't anywhere near full volume output. I know I'm not even using the full 100 watts per amp (combo).

How do you know this?

Edit: Are you able to turn up your volume controls and get a noticeable increase in volume? With no clipping on the attacks?

 

[M-Mittlesteadt]

How do you know this?

Edit: Are you able to turn up your volume controls and get a noticeable increase in volume? With no clipping on the attacks?

Absolutely. I have a lot more available I could turn up to, but it gets too loud. I know for many bass players, "too loud" is an oxymoron.

 

[cheapbasslovin]

I took a Valve Jr to rehearsal once just to see how efficient my BFM Jack 210 was.

Turns out it wasn't quite THAT efficient, but I could hear myself through most of our songs (not a lot of THICK in that tone, but the hair was incredible). When I use an amp I use a BassBlock 800, but I doubt I'm ever pushing more than about 100w.

I have a Sunn 200 (60w) that needs some work, but in proper condition I'd have no trouble gigging that.

 

[Passinwind]

So watt is everyone's idea of how many watts they need? What's your bottom, lowest wattage threshold you'd gig with? And why?

Just a thought for discussion.

500 watts is where I start feeling comfortable. That's with a 4 ohm 112 cab.

 

[Pdaddy1978]

I got by for 2 decades, in admittedly smaller venues, with 55 watts (tube) into an efficient 15 cab. When we played larger places, I just used a DI into the FOH.
Clean headroom?...no
Tone I liked?....yeah

 

[Redbrangus]

Absolutely. I have a lot more available I could turn up to, but it gets too loud. I know for many bass players, "too loud" is an oxymoron.

Now I'm wondering what combos you have. Not that I doubt what you're saying -- in my less enlightened youth, I played way too loud for several years using just a 50-watt Bassman.

 

[M-Mittlesteadt]

Two Fender Rumble 100's (V3)...

MUCH louder than I thought they'd be.

 

[Passinwind]

Two Fender Rumble 100's (V3)...

MUCH louder than I thought they'd be.

I've been using one occasionally at a new open mic across the river, no problem getting loud enough with just a minimal trap kit or no drums. I like the Rumble 200 I tested last year a lot better though, in all honesty. For me no tweeter equals no thanks, I really need the enhanced pitch definition since I'm fretless only.

 

[Al Kraft]

500 watts is where I start feeling comfortable. That's with a 4 ohm 112 cab.

Would I be right in guessing that cab might be an AK Charlie?

I find that with the design trades Duke makes I like around 400-500 Watts with my AK C112T cab. Before anyone concludes that my comment is a knock on Duke's design, it is one of my 3 top favorite cabs and given the prevalence of higher wattage amps these days was a very reasonable decision given what his cab can do with minimal size and weight.

With some other cabs that have a little higher sensitivity, I like to have at least 150 to 300 Watts (usable, delivered to the cab) to get me strong bass, reasonable volume, and still preserve a little headroom. Obviously the amp's rated output at the cab's input impedance would need to match that range.

 

[Wasnex]

Everyone has different gigging tone and volume goals given their own situation with the music/bands they play in.

I was one of the first to build Greenboy's fEARful 15/6 cabs. At that time I also was designing and building my own cabs as well. I was playing in a very loud rock cover band and was running usually 800 to 1200 watts amps/heads.

Back then I wanted efficient speakers/cabs but also thought I needed a ton of clean power. I took a hiatus from music for a bit and sold all my bass gear. Coming back to music this past year, I realized that I no longer needed to be loud, but wanted the ability if need be.

I bought a couple of new combos (used separately or chained together). Each one is rated at 100 watts into a 112 cab. Each combo only weighs 22 lbs. as I need more lightweight gear. While I've always known we seldom (if ever), are throwing all the watts we might have available into our cabs and the volume output is more a matter of speaker efficiency than watts.

I still see a lot of threads where people already have their own idea as to how many watts they feel they need to gig with their band, but seldom ask (or know) how efficient their cabs are.

My two combos together can put out 200 watts total into two efficient 112 speakers/cabs (100 watts per cab) and it easily holds its own against two guitarists (one with a Fender Twin), loud drummer, and keyboards, and my rig isn't anywhere near full volume output. I know I'm not even using the full 100 watts per amp (combo). I seldom play with these guys and don't really like loud stage volume, but my little rig holds it's own, quite easily in fact, when needed.

So watt is everyone's idea of how many watts they need? What's your bottom, lowest wattage threshold you'd gig with? And why?

Just a thought for discussion.

It depends on the sensitivity of the cab. Sensitivity is usually stated as the SPL you get when you apply 1W and measure on axis at 1 meter from the cone.

Let's say the sensitivity is 97dB 1W/1m. With 1W you get 97dB 1 meter from the driver. Every time you double the power the SPL goes up 3dB.

Here is the sequence:

1 = 97dB
2 = 100dB
4 = 103dB
8 = 106dB
16 = 109dB
32 = 112dB
64 = 115dB
128 = 118dB
256 =121dB

In my experience a rig rated for 124dB meets most of my requirements. Also I am not really willing to turn up much more.

If sensitivity is stated at 1W/1m you can use this simplified formula:

Calculated SPL = [Log(Usable Power) x 10] = Sensitivity.

My last rig typical used 260W into a cab with Sensitivity = 103dB 1W/1m

Calculated SPL = [Log(260) x 10] + 103 = ~127dB

I don't believe I ever pushed that rig to clipping.

If the cab's Sensitivity = 97dB 1W/1m you need 4 times the usable power to produce the same SPL.

Calculated SPL = [Log(1040) x 10] + 97 = ~127dB

Not many cabs will survive 1040W

 

[Jogobass]

I went with a 500 watt combo, Fender Rumble. 350 watts into 210 and 500 watts if I hook up my 15 inch cab as well. Small and powerful and enough for most gigs as a standalone combo. And I can carry it quite some distance from the car while I have my bass in the gigbag on my back.

 

[soulstew]

I have played several gigs in a classic country / Americana band with no PA support using a Quilter Interbass, which is rated at 45 watts rms, into a single 4-ohm Euphonic Audio Wizzy 12 M-line, which EA says has an efficiency of 103dB at 1 watt/1 meter. I've played quite a few gigs with a Trace Elliot Elf, (200 watts rms) into that same cab. Neither the Interbass nor the Elf have left me wanting, even at times when we've gotten very loud. I know that both the Interbass and the Elf have some internal limiting capabilites, which can make them seem more powerful than their ratings suggest. I even used the Interbass for a small-town street dance where the entire band had to share a single 110 volt extension cord, and it got plenty loud enough to carry the street dance with no PA support.

Having said all of that, though, 90% of the time I use a Handbox R400 head, which is rated for 400 watts into 4 ohms, into a single EA Wizzy M-line. That rig can get far louder than I'll ever need indoors. Outdoors, if we have normal A/C power, I will add a second Wizzy M-line, which drops impedence to 2 ohms and the Handbox is then capable of around 650 watts. Doubling the cabs presumably bumps the efficiency to 106 db @ 1w/1m. That arrangement can get ridiculously loud, far louder than we need.

You can see that I am all-in on the cab efficiency bandwagon. However, given the abundance of cheap wattage these days, thanks to class D, there is really no need anymore to rely on cab efficiency to get you to the volume level you need, so I am admittedly a bit of a dinosaur. It's fun, though, to see how much you can do with very few watts, and sometimes driving those smaller amps harder gets you into a zone where natural compression and a little pleaant distortion can nudge you into tone heaven.

 

[Wasnex]

Would I be right in guessing that cab might be an AK Charlie?

I find that with the design trades Duke makes I like around 400-500 Watts with my AK C112T cab. Before anyone concludes that my comment is a knock on Duke's design, it is one of my 3 top favorite cabs and given the prevalence of higher wattage amps these days was a very reasonable decision given what his cab can do with minimal size and weight.

With some other cabs that have a little higher sensitivity, I like to have at least 150 to 300 Watts (usable, delivered to the cab) to get me strong bass, reasonable volume, and still preserve a little headroom. Obviously the amp's rated output at the cab's input impedance would need to match that range.

Yep, sensitivity is an important design trade off.

There are plenty of comments where people were disappointed in the volume a fEARless 12/6 could produce.

The 12/6 used a 3012LF woofer. The sensitivity for the 3012LF is 95.5dB 1W/1m. There are claims that power handling is 450W, but I suspect 400W mechanical is probably a bit more realistic. This is consistent with the medium and large Eminence tunings for the 3012LF, which are mechanically limited to 400W.

Calculated SPL at 450W = ~122dB
Calculated SPL at 400W = ~121.5dB

Since my baseline is a rig rated 124dB minimum, I am not surprised some people were disappointed with the volume limits of a single 12/6.

A 1212/6 should take double the power, have approximately 3dB higher sensitivity, and be capable of about 6dB more volume. So I would expect to be happy with a 1212/6 and 800W

 

[Tim Skaggs]

I played for several years with a 350w@4 ohm / 500w@2 ohm head into a 115 + 210 cabs that were 2.67 ohm. The 115 cab was one of a few I had that were 99db sensitivity. The 210 cab was a 94 db sensitivity cab. That was plenty for any indoor gig.

Outdoors I usually used two 8 ohm 115 cabs (w/tweeters) and often a second amp fed by the low side of the primary amp’s electronic crossover driving a third 115 cab for all below about 250 Hz.

In the last several years, I’ve played in bands or at venues with plenty PA support that included subs. In those situations, I often use a single 8 ohm 115 cab with a 125w amp or two single 8 ohm 112 cabs with the same amp making 250w. The single 115 is probably around 93-95 db sensitivity (Fender Rumble 115, 300w). Fender doesn’t publish the freq range or sensitivity (likely for a good reason). The 112 cabs are GK MB series aluminum box cabs & I have no idea of their sensitivity. Both stacked vertical do better than is expected by their appearance…

 

[klokker]

I play in basically a classic rock band for mostly an older crowd. I could probably cover all the gigs I've played with my first amp, a 250watt 115 Fender Combo. But I use 600 watts into a 212 and it's nice to not have to push it and it's much cleaner. If I could justify getting more power and new cabs I would, as long as it's easy to gig.

I played through an SVT into a 6x10 for a while and cranking that thing wasn't healthy. But assuming it's a hybrid or solid state amp, I would say the more power the better for me, even though I don't need it.

 

[rockdoc11]

In particularly loud band situations I've found 200 watts (into a typical 410) to not be quite enough. I'm personally comfortable with 500 watts or so.

But on the opposite extreme, in the early 1990s I played with a sometimes-stupid-loud rock band. I was then using an Alembic F-1X pre into a Stewart World 2.1 (running bridged) into my Eden 410 cab.

2.1 kilowatts!

Two of the four tens were dead at the end of the evening.

I'm so happy those days are long gone for me!

 

[Passinwind]

Would I be right in guessing that cab might be an AK Charlie?

I find that with the design trades Duke makes I like around 400-500 Watts with my AK C112T cab. Before anyone concludes that my comment is a knock on Duke's design, it is one of my 3 top favorite cabs and given the prevalence of higher wattage amps these days was a very reasonable decision given what his cab can do with minimal size and weight.

Yep, TC112AF v1 in my case. I've been using it very happily since 2011 IIRC. Often with more powerful amps than 500W @ 4 ohms too, which could certainly easily be "don't try this at home" territory if one expects too much. When I do play with a drummer none of my local guys are very hard hitters, and they are often times not mic'ed at all, thankfully. Unlike my buddy @Wasnex, I think 108-110dB at my playing position is the very highest SPL I would/could tolerate, and the last time that might have happened was in the 17 piece community big band, living right next door to the trumpet section.

 

[Wasnex]

Unlike my buddy @Wasnex, I think 108-110dB at my playing position is the very highest SPL I would/could tolerate

Is that average or peak?

While I want a rig capable of 124dB, that is not the average SPL I play at. AFAIK live bass has something like a 12-15dB crest factor. So even if I am maxing out the rig, meaning my transient are hitting 124dB, the average SPL will be more like 112-115dB.

That's still pretty loud; which is why I pretty much always used custom ER20 ear plugs when I performed.