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Whappo vs. Schroeder

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Lets keep in mind that just because something is twice the price, it doesn't mean it cost that much to build, it's just what they are charging. There are several products in the bass world that are heavily marketed and hyped up, along with this image there is often a price tag that matches. Just look at some of the prices of basses, I have played insruments of comparable sound and quality but one of them was $1,600.00 and the other was $4,900.00. There is alot of gouging going on with basses, and oh yeah.... amps too ;)
 
Lets keep in mind that just because something is twice the price, it doesn't mean it cost that much to build, it's just what they are charging. There are several products in the bass world that are heavily marketed and hyped up, along with this image there is often a price tag that matches.
I couldn’t agree more! There are many items, even more so in the audiophile world, where you pay a huge premium for the smoke & mirrors being touted in their advertising.

Our story is a little different because after 30 years of frustration [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] with bass cabinets, my partner David Innis & I designed the El Whappo strictly for me; not to start a company. We spent a few years testing over 1,200 speakers & every cabinet design known to man for this personal project.

Since I waited 30 years for a solution, I didn’t care how much it cost or how long it took. When we were done with the project, I now had "my" perfect cabinet & it was over.
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Later, pro players like Myron Dove (Santana) & Polo Jones (Whitney Huston) heard my personal cab in the studio & wanted to place an order. That’s when we were pretty much forced into business.

At our first NAMM show, everyone including Bass Player Mag. loved our cabinets. However, we couldn’t sell them because we did not know how much they cost to build, let alone what they would sell for. When we came back from the show, we reversed engineered our own cabs to see what they cost.
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To this day, when we design a new cabinet we do things backwards from our competitors. Price never comes into the equation, because we do not want to compromise the end result. We never look at the cost of components, the cost of manufacturing or even what the wholesale or retail pricing would be. We do not try to match things up price wise or in any other way with our competitors.

We only have two goals in mind; build a cabinet that fills a void in the industry while solving problems for bass players & build the best no compromise cabinet on the planet. Cost is never a factor, only quality.

In our case, our prices are not inflated; it's simply what it cost to build these babies. In addition, we are a tiny company that hand builds everything from the circuit boards to the crossovers, we cut every piece of wood, glue every piece of carpet, etc. right here in our own facility. We do not use CNC, nor do we out source overseas or to other large manufacturers. It’s kind of like getting like getting a custom MTD, Nordstrand or Ritter bass built; everything is done the by hand the slow old fashion way.

I do not set behind a desk crunching numbers all day like a business man; I’m in the manufacturing room building cabinets. When they are done, I take the extra time to personally test every single cabinet. Not just with our custom test instruments that we built ourselves, but as a real bass player with my personal basses. (Bee 6 fretted, Ritter 6 fretless, Lakland Joe Osborn 5, M Bass 4 fretless & 5 fretted, Barker upright fretless 5, Basslabs 4 & 5 fretted) Only after passing my tourture tests do they get boxed & shipped. :bassist:

Yes, there are companies that have heavily marketed and hyped up products with price tags to match; however, we are not one of them.
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Mark
AccuGroove Music Systems
 
seansbrew said:
I have played insruments of comparable sound and quality but one of them was $1,600.00 and the other was $4,900.00. There is alot of gouging going on with basses, and oh yeah.... amps too ;)

No offense ... but perhaps you do not possess the experience and/or expertise to judge the nuance/ complexity of tone or the workmanship of the instruments you tried. I know many of the high end luthiers and the work they put in, I also know the costs of the materials they use. I also KNOW that it is not unreasonable for a builder to want to provide for their family. I have rarely seen price gouging. Perhaps you think 5k for a Fodera is high - I can tell you their not getting rich on it.

Even though I endorse a "comptetitor" (EA), I can vouch for the quality of materials, the R&D time and commitment to excellence that Mark White puts into Accugroove. They are worth every penny. I find it a bit outrageous that people with limited information on how this business works chiming in with irresponsible comments.

Dimin
 
No offense ... but perhaps you do not possess the experience and/or expertise to judge the nuance/ complexity of tone or the workmanship of the instruments you tried.

Maybe I don't have the experience or expertise to judge the nuance of tone, but no one else does either. Excluding the costs of manufacturing (which can be proven) everything that is said about bass equipment and the tone it may have, including what you have to say, is an OPINION.

And as far as what you consider " irresponsible comment" I have a membership here that allows me to "chime in" with ( almost :smug: ) any comment I care to make and if you don't like it TOUGH,. And by the way, I have heard the same comments expressed by many people that operate in the industry (luthiers, dealers, and distributors), maybe they are irresponsible too. I didn't attack or name names or imply that the E.W. cabs were in fact over priced, I just mentioned that sometimes this happens. And if you read the post by Whappo Grande you can see that he made a clear point to me using tact and class, he did not start off with “I don't mean to be rude, but here I'm going to do it anyway". Take a lesson. :p
 
seansbrew said:
Maybe I don't have the experience or expertise to judge the nuance of tone, but no one else does either.
uh...wrong! There are many here who truly know and can discern the nuances of each instrument (and many, as I have seen all too often here, who don't have a clue).

seansbrew said:
Excluding the costs of manufacturing (which can be proven)
How much do you pay for Vinnie Fodera's or Michael Tobias' 20+ years of experience built into every bass? How many basses get built and then scrapped in the R&D phase? What is the cost of buying top notch wood and then waiting for year(s) until it has reached the proper moisture content? That is not factoring the cost of Health Insurance for the luthier and his/her employees, the rising cost of oil to run the equipment and transport the product. You must factor in all these other intangebles. Finally, there is a huge difference in building an instrument or a cabinet with the main concern the sound, the finish, the design and one from a company whose main concern is the bottom line.


seansbrew said:
everything that is said about bass equipment and the tone it may have, including what you have to say, is an OPINION.

You're absolutely correct. The more experienced players have a better educated and therefore more respected opinion. But you know what they say, "opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one" - me included.


seansbrew said:
And as far as what you consider " irresponsible comment" I have a membership here that allows me to "chime in" with ( almost :smug: ) any comment I care to make and if you don't like it TOUGH,. And by the way, I have heard the same comments expressed by many people that operate in the industry (luthiers, dealers, and distributors), maybe they are irresponsible too. I didn't attack or name names or imply that the E.W. cabs were in fact over priced, I just mentioned that sometimes this happens. And if you read the post by Whappo Grande you can see that he made a clear point to me using tact and class, he did not start off with “I don't mean to be rude, but here I'm going to do it anyway". Take a lesson. :p

You have every right to say whatever you want, whether you are a supporting member or not. In fact, because I am a "pro" here I have quite a bit more restrictions on what I can say. Yet, I always find it interesting how many people chime in but do not provide their level of expertise or experience ...like the "expert" on speaker cabinet sound who had been playing for all of 2 years.

The problem with your post is that other's will read it and repeat the line that a particular company is price gouging - which cannot be further from the truth. If you know of a company, and can prove it, then name the company. If all you have is inuendo, stories and of course, the TB Post, then perhaps it's better not to say anything at all.

Dimin
 
by the way i wasn't dissing accugrooves because the're expensive. i was trying to say they are expensive for a reason, they probably spend more on the components and labor than the schroeder sells for. again i applaud accugroove for putting out a line where no corners were cut. i also applaud jorg schroeder for making a top notch cab that a working stiff like myself can afford. both are top notch cabs but i think they are aimed at slightly different (yet overlaping) markets.
 
While the Accugroove stuff looks nice (no place near to try it)...and I understand what they're going for, it's not really what I'm looking for. First off, I'd feel silly showing up to most of the clubs, bars and gigs with 2+ grand worth of cabinets, if I could afford them in the first place...

...but more importantly, I am looking for amp color. Not all types of music and all musicians are looking for 'monitor' style hi-fi reproduction. This is why I'm using a tube head and one of the reasons that Schroeders appeal to me.

On the front where people want to claim that others can't 'feel' the difference in quality or hear the subtle difference in sound high end products...It's nice to be able to congratulate yourself on your superior ear and eye for quality...but ALL things of this nature are subjective, and the not so subtle put-down has no real traction, no matter how jingoistic you want to get about it no matter wether it's the popular paradigm or not. The same people who go on about the quality of the stitching in their car's upholstery or debate the threadweight of their sheets.
 
BurningSkies said:
While the Accugroove stuff looks nice (no place near to try it)...and I understand what they're going for, it's not really what I'm looking for. First off, I'd feel silly showing up to most of the clubs, bars and gigs with 2+ grand worth of cabinets, if I could afford them in the first place...
It's not about the way they look ... it's about the way they sound.

BurningSkies said:
...but more importantly, I am looking for amp color. Not all types of music and all musicians are looking for 'monitor' style hi-fi reproduction. This is why I'm using a tube head and one of the reasons that Schroeders appeal to me.
The point of having fairly nuetral cabinets is the ability to sculpt the sound that you want. It is much easier to create YOUR sound from a nuetral sounding cab, then to have to first get rid of the coloration of a different cab. If a certain "colored" sound (ie SR,Ampeg) is your bag, then go for it. I have found that players who get a certain signature amp sound, often outgrow that sound.

BurningSkies said:
On the front where people want to claim that others can't 'feel' the difference in quality or hear the subtle difference in sound high end products...It's nice to be able to congratulate yourself on your superior ear and eye for quality...but ALL things of this nature are subjective, and the not so subtle put-down has no real traction, no matter how jingoistic you want to get about it no matter wether it's the popular paradigm or not. The same people who go on about the quality of the stitching in their car's upholstery or debate the threadweight of their sheets.

My car mechanic spent 7K on a tool box, with NO tools in it - why - because those are the tools of his trade and he is not willing to sacrifice anything. He is a great mechanic and needs top notch tools to get the job done.

I am a pro. I make 100% of my income in the music industry - as a player, author, clinician and educator. I need equipment that allows me to create my sound when and where I need it. I am not willing to sacrifice that - there is too much riding on it. I have taken the time to learn about gear. I have taken the time to learn about the sound(s) that I need. I have taken the time to learn what gear is best (for me) - and that is the gear that I use! I have been doing it, professionally, for 25 years. I am not congratulating myself on anything but a great deal hard work over many years. I have a certain expertise. I am willing to back that expertise up. I present MY opinions based on 25 years of intense work, commitment and dedication. You, as always, have the right to listen or not. If, however, you choose to make assertions about people in this industry and cannot back it up, I will call you on it ... and to quote seansbrew, "if you don't like it TOUGH."

Dimin

BTW, I also don't hide behind some anonymous handle on talkbass
 
Mike Dimin said:
BTW, I also don't hide behind some anonymous handle on talkbass

Hmmm. I'll go with: "because getting your name out is free advertising" for $1000. As you stated, you make 100% of your income in the music industry...exposure is your friend.

Some of us make 100% of our income doing something else. Some of us gripe about that something else on this website. Some of us work for people that Google our names periodically to see if we are job hunting. Therefore, some of us "hide" behind some anonymous handle on Talkbass.

All of that aside, your credentials are impecable and I'm sure you're a great player. I've also got no doubt you can hear things in a cabinet that I can't. I'll still pick up my bass tomorrow and watch my 2 yr. old dance to it.

Mike
 
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