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What Amplifier Specifications Do You Feel Is Beneficial?

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I mean no disrespect, but what I see are some brands that seem to design by focus groups. IMHO One B* designs all appear to be from focus groups!

I expect to see a lot of requests for "faster horses", but my gut says says like Jobs would say along the lines of "people don't know what they want until you show it to them." :)
Invention is the mother of necessity. (Jared Diamond)
 
I think each amp spec sheet should state what genre(s) it is best used for. Please note that this is not the same as "this amp is the best amp for x genre." This isn't a "best amp for metal" joke. Plus, it's not only the metal kids asking the question, there are certainly a lot of people with opinions of which amps are best for which genres. I don't really get it because I think any decent amp can work anywhere but it seems that it would stop a lot of arguing if experts in manufacturing would clarify this for people who believe otherwise.
Kind of like some of the humorous stuff you'd find in manuals, and on circuit boards for Mackie gear in the Greg Mackie era!
 
So I'm sitting at my desk pondering some thoughts for an update of specifications provided, and while there are a ton of possible specs. to include I think many of them are virtually meaningless to the overwhelming majority of players. Of course there are some important ones as well.

Now's your opportunity to state your opinions as to what an "ideal" amplifier spec. sheet should contain. As ideas come up, I may wish to discuss them to be sure we are on the same page.

The one thing I am not going to accept are disrespectful posts however, and this is not (yet another) class D amp debate as the class of amp does not matter for this discussion.

I would want the frequency of the control nobs, plus value at full off and full on.....

In my D-800 manual, it stats the "flat setting" is at noon and freq. But only states <80 hz. Well 40-80 is a large range.


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I would love to see a scope reading (if that's the right term) of the amp with all eq controls at noon. If the response is not basically flat at those settings (e.g. if it has a baked-in eq curve like the GK heads), I'd also like to see what knob settings give the closest to flat response on the particular amp in question.

If this is also going to be considered for cabinets, I'd like to see actual response graphs, on and off axis, rather than some mystical "sensitivity" number provided with no information on what frequency it occurs at, or what the response curve as a whole looks like.

I would also really like to see the frequency response plot of the amplifier with all controls set flat (and the frequency response for cabinets). This could be under an advanced specifications section so they would not be visible unless selected. This would keep the webpage looking clean with standard data (power into each ohm rating, frequency centers and +/- for eq controls, etc.) and still provide this data for the users that want it at minimal cost (just collecting the figures and creating an additional webpage). This advanced specifications page could also show stuff like the plot of the shape control at three settings or so.

This information (and neck profile measurements for any instrument manufacturers reading this) would allow consumers like us to be better informed about what will work for us.

I also just want to say thanks for asking!
 
Kind of like some of the humorous stuff you'd find in manuals, and on circuit boards for Mackie gear in the Greg Mackie era!
I loved that stuff! In fact it sort of gave me confidence that the designers were clever people having a great time at what they did. OBTW, my Mackie powered mixer and other gear from that era are still running strong and none of it has ever seen a tech's bench for anything.

Props to Mesa for their humorous inclusion on the D-800 warning notes on the rear of the amp. I might have gone so far as to carry that theme into the troubleshooting section of the manual with a symptom entitled "No Amp at end of Power Cord" and a suggested list of actions like: Look on floor, Check Mesa Gig Bag, Ask the Drummer, Call police...or something similar. :)
 
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@agedhorse , unless "It's extremely reliable!" and "Sounds great!" can be added to a spec sheet, I'm pretty sure I fall into the category, stated above... even with a technical background, I never went farther than price, power, and pizza, with regards to buying an amp, cab, or combo...

... now, if I was building something myself, that would be a different story, as I would research it to the point that I may never finish...

In general this is probably best determined by the type of warranty offered, as that expresses the confidence that the company has of its products.

For me (not an engineer)....
1. Center dent EQ (optimum sounding)
2. Actual "honest" watts at 8 & 4 ohm
I haven't used an amp in about 2 years, but these would be my 2 deciding factors when purchasing a new rig.

I'm seeing "honest" an awful lot with regards to power. In this regard, the specs. already provided are clear and well defined. What would be dishonest about this?

I just want to know what all knobs at noon does. Everybody thins that's where 'flat' is but it almost never is. I'm tired of having to fuss with amps for ages to get an approximation of the sound I want.

When I buy an amp, I want to not have to scour the internet to find out that 'flat' is something crazy and not "all knobs at noon."

Why the focus on "flat", when most of the most coveted amps are anything but flat? If you knew that an amp wasn't ruler flat, wold that disqualify it from consideration? Most players just simply don't choose flat what presented with such options in a blind listening test.

Some sort of meaningful spec for the average joe to understand what is going on with the Master control, as you turn it more to the right. For example, with the Subway 800, if I turn the Master all the way to the right, am I getting the full 800 watts at 4 ohms, or did that already happen before I got that far ? I'm probably not asking this in the right terms, but perhaps just a chart showing what type of volume taper is in the amp. Am I getting everything at straight up 12 o'clock, or do I need to go further, etc. ?

This is simply impossible because output level is a function of input signal level gain control position, and eq. There is however an easier way t o tell when you are reaching the limits of the amp, that's the output limit LED. The operation and detailed functions of which are discussed thoroughly in the manuals.

I find it extremely annoying that a very large number of amps do not specify what range their "Mid" knob actually is adjusting. While having a movable mid is ideal, if it's not included I would at least like to know what frequency I'm fiddling with.

This is an interesting comment, I have always included end points on sweep mid controls, and used to provide additional points (the control's operation is linear from end to end so extrapolation is straight forward) but with the shrinking size of front panels it makes for cluttered and virtually unreadable text which is why this is no longer common.

With regard to EQ, I would also like to know the Q values for mids. Also, tell me if the bass and treble controls are shelf or peak.

Q is an interesting thought, the other specs. have always been included in the manual text but will consider adding to spec pages.

One of the things that bugs me about parametric controls is a lack of knowledge about which frequencies are where on the dial. Even if it was just published in the manual as a spec (rather than printed on the faceplate), that location reference would be useful to me.

On all of my parametric designs, the rotation is linear from endpoint to endpoint. Perhaps adding this information to the manual might be helpful?

For those of us who actually have a sense for what the various frequencies contribute to or diminish, this would be very useful IMO. I hate doing the old max or zero the gain and sweep the frequencies until you get an effect deal during a sound check...then I still need to fine tune. I could start the fine tuning more quickly if I knew the frequency ranges more precisely.

Having folks identify a frequency response is an enlightening exercise. I'm amazed at how far off (by octaves) folks can be yet they are convinced that their answer is tone perfect correct. This is the single biggest challenge with sweep mid eqs. and has been for years (worse years ago).

Having read through all the answers so far, the second order question that comes to mind is what specs are necessary/desirable to sell amps to the more technically minded folks who can connect the dots between all the various pieces of data and what is useful/desirable/necessary to entice/satisfy people who are more musician/artist minded and not really into the "how" it's accomplished.

I've played with some incredible musicians whose only piece of numerical knowledge regarding their gear was the phone number of trusted sound tech who could keep it running well. Other players I know are quite proficient in the musical realm, but also happen to be rocket scientists. The most challenging problem I see here beyond picking the right set of data to present to the rocket scientists (who like analyze exactly why the amp sounds that good), is how to be sure that some of those specs (as mentioned in an earlier post) aren't interpreted as the amp being weak in the low end because it has a HPF set point at 35 HZ or something similar.

This is a good example... regularly I hear from folks who are convinced that HPF's are bad, they are evil, they are tone sucking circuits from hell, yet the consistently choose a tone that includes a HPF frequency much higher than most would predict. I think those of you who have D-800+ amps have been surprised in this regard as well.

Honestly, give me specs to show reliability and power and then do a video where I can hear what the tone controls do. Don't do a bunch of slap and noodling high up on the fretboard, it's showing the tone of the amp, not the player's prowess. Maybe even loop over a fairly simple bass line and then turn the knobs to show what they do and how they sound. How many people can look a graph and know how the control will sound?

Reliability is pretty much covered in the warranty I think (ie. putting one's money where their marketing mouth is), I agree with your comments about demo videos and in fact the demos of the Subways contain very little slap and noodling up high in response to these thoughts.
 
Well, very interesting, but TL;DR after page 3 so I will risk duplicating a request.

The HPF and shelving controls usually get a nice description of cutoff frequency, what about a description of the steepness of the filter in dB/octave? Is there a way to provide a dB/octave number for semi-parametric mid EQ controls, to somehow get a handle on the baked-in Q? How does "Q" relate to filter steepness in dB/octave?

Also, is there some way to estimate the total dB cut/boost possible in the EQ section, and how many watts of output power that cut/boost will cause in the amp's output?

Thanks Agedhorse.
 
I loved that stuff! In fact it sort of gave me confidence that the designers were clever people having a great time at what they did. OBTW, my Mackie powered mixer and other gear from that era is still running strong and none of it has ever seen a tech's bench for anything.

Props top Mesa for their humorous inclusion on the D-800 warning notes on the rear of the amp. I might have gone so far as to carry that theme into the troubleshooting section of the manual with a symptom entitled "No Amp at end of Power Cord" and a suggested list of actions like: Look on floor, Check Mesa Gig Bag, Ask the Drummer, Call police...or something similar. :)

There is indeed some of this in the troubleshooting section oft he manual...
===============================================
SYMPTOM: No audio output:

Is the power LED lit and do the tally LEDs over the function switches work?

NO: Possible causes to check in this order are

1. Verify the power source, verify that the IEC power cable is not damaged and is fully inserted into its socket,

2. Verify that nobody unplugged your amp or turned off your power strip when you weren’t looking (if so, blame the guitar player, turn on and play.).

If these do not solve your problem, it’s possible that your amplifier has failed so call our customer service department and we will help you get this resolved.
=================================================================================================
 
Almost everything has been covered, and addressed, and most of that is already in the D-800/D-800+ specs. THD is a tough one, as Andy already mentioned. I remembered a post on how the stated THD of a Mesa amp couldn't possibly be musical and poster might have claimed it was a way to bloat the watts. How about a couple of statements, something like:

Maximum clean wattage (wattage before clipping, wattage before audible distortion?)
Maximum recommended or usable distortion/dirty/clipped wattage

I'm sure there are better words, which may or may not come to me after another pot of coffee. It's only noon:30 here.

Maybe, Frequency Response, +/-db of the Amp section alone.

Maybe THD of the amp section?

Which frequencies each EQ knob adjusts & to what degree.

This might delve into proprietary or risk blowing some heads off from too much information, but it would be nice to have this applied to all the tone shaping features, like on the D-800, the Deep Switch. The Q of these settings. I don't think these would apply to the mid-scoop/contour type controls.

A separate download, "A note from Andy" explaining the specs to those who do not know, want to know and are afraid to ask. Of course an "*" by every spec with a footnote stating, "See a note from Andy."

If you are going to do the computer youtube, you also need to play the beginning of "Welcome to the Machine" into the best Mesa cab, miked and you tube that :D

Finally, what about Behringer Watts? No one has mentioned BW! I want my BEHRINGER WATTS! :D
 
Why the focus on "flat", when most of the most coveted amps are anything but flat? If you knew that an amp wasn't ruler flat, wold that disqualify it from consideration? Most players just simply don't choose flat what presented with such options in a blind listening test.
It's not that I care about playing thru the amp at a 'flat' setting. Its because I need a point of reference. It's confusing to people who aren't technically inclined, when we go out looking at amps and set things to where we think will be an approximation of the sound we get on another amp, only to discover that the amp "sounds like crap" because we are almost all under the (false) impression that all knobs at noon is supposed to be the "flat" position.

So yeah, something that allows me to know where that setting is in any particular amp would give me an excellent starting point to discover what it can do and how I can work with it. Does that make sense?
 
This is an interesting comment, I have always included end points on sweep mid controls, and used to provide additional points (the control's operation is linear from end to end so extrapolation is straight forward) but with the shrinking size of front panels it makes for cluttered and virtually unreadable text which is why this is no longer common.

Q is an interesting thought, the other specs. have always been included in the manual text but will consider adding to spec pages.

On all of my parametric designs, the rotation is linear from endpoint to endpoint. Perhaps adding this information to the manual might be helpful?

Reading a bit further I see other did bring up my points. Of course I don't understand how Q is related to dB/octave, or if the idea of a slope is applicable outside of HPF/LPFs.

Telling folks if your frequency knobs are linear or log is a *fantastic* idea. When I was an Eden user I interpolated the frequencies for their classic pre-amp semi-parametric mid filters. My first interpolation was linear, and I got lambasted by people suggesting they were log. Then the Eden team chimed in and indeed they were log! I published new interpolations. The Eden team made me post a disclaimer due to the lack of precision of the pots that the frequencies should still be thought of as approximations.

So judging by this post, the semi-para mid frequency knobs on the ShuttleMax 9.2 should be linear as well? I created an interpolation for myself, and we chatted about that, I actually did post those here on TB...

ShuttleMax semi-parametric freqs, nominal

Those appear to be roughly logarithmic to me @agedhorse, and they come from your data. I hate to throw a monkey wrench in the proceedings, but now I am really curious. Did you switch to linear at Mesa?
 
I can see a flat setting being useful, especially with a heavily voiced cab. I can also see some players dialing in flat and never changing it, never realizing the capability of the amp, or writing it off as junk. Some amps may not be capable of flat if the power section is heavily voiced. Maybe that type of thing should be covered in an eq how-to.
 
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It's not that I care about playing thru the amp at a 'flat' setting. Its because I need a point of reference. It's confusing to people who aren't technically inclined, when we go out looking at amps and set things to where we think will be an approximation of the sound we get on another amp, only to discover that the amp "sounds like crap" because we are almost all under the (false) impression that all knobs at noon is supposed to be the "flat" position.

So yeah, something that allows me to know where that setting is in any particular amp would give me an excellent starting point to discover what it can do and how I can work with it. Does that make sense?
"And set things to where we think will be an approximation of the sound we get on another amp..."

Are you saying you're trying to achieve the same sound on 2 completely different amps? Plus, when going out to try other amps, won't you end up fiddling with all the knobs to find the sound that's most pleasing?
 
What I look at:

- THD @ a given frequency
- Watts RMS @ a given impedence
- Watts peak
- Impedence, nominal
- EQ: adjustment range
- Voltage (US/Europe)

Aside from that, it's features (like the separate Gain and Volume on the G-B Shuttles.)

You can't even get info on the specs above for some amps, but you can usually get most of it. I KNOW that the numbers are always fudged, but in the real world they always will be. At least you have numbers that might have been fudged in similar ways.