What Constitutes a Professional Musician?

[Pet Sounds]

I'd never call myself a professional, as music isn't my bread and butter. I am, however, in the business of music, as my band has an LLC, keeps books and files tax returns. Maybe people like me are "semi-pro?"
My tax man has told me never to refer to my music work as a "hobby" as that's treated differently in terms of taxation. I don't think of it as a hobby, anyway. More of a way of life.

 

[Fun With Dirt]

Depends on the context it is used in. Someone may just be meaning to say that someone has or they want someone who has the traits of what you would expect from a professional.

...but I would say, technically, they have to earn some non-negligible portion of their total income from music.

 

[Claymore]

1) Prostate flaring up like a tiki torch.
2) Hemorrhoids from constant driving to and from gigs.
3) Ornery disposition (Get off my lawn).
4) Empty bank account from spending all profits on new basses.

 

[mikeoso]

...since you asked...anyone who doesn't make a substantial part of their income doing something and calls them self a "professional" is a pretentious poser.

yes, there are professional behaviours, skills, and appearance...even pro-level results. But: I used to get paid to coach football, but it only made up 10% of my income, and I was not a "professional football coach". I've had photos used in textbooks, magazines, and even a Smithsonian exhibit, and been compensated, but neither I nor my friends who are pro fotogs would call me a pro. I've been paid to play music, as much as $100/gig, (woohoo) but the pro musicians I know would laugh impolitely if I called myself a pro.

Having said all that, I suppose that if somebody wants to call themselves a pro because they occasionally paid to play, they can..but they're kidding someone, likely themselves.

 

[Medicine Man]

My guitarist tells me he is a professional and I'm not because he "lives" off our band income while i have a day job.

 

[fhm555]

That sounds more like an issue with your self esteem than the definition of what it means to be a professional at something.

Sorry, passive aggressive replies won’t help at all in a discussion about professionalism. If I could advertise as a bass player and stand a reasonable chance of passing most any audition, if i was making college fund and 401k money and able to live well while doing so, i’d consider myself a professional musician, otherwise i’m a hobbyist who gets paid to devalue the professional musicians who depend on music to make my living.
As for me having self esteem issues? Nah, I’m not a professional musician because I’m far too lazy to work as hard as they must for their daily bread, and why would I, I do better with much less effort. Music has always been enough of a passion i want to be involved, but formal study of it leaves me cold. I tried early and again several other times in my life to become more technically adept and every time i’ve given up because i can stay in my little lane and get everything I ever want out if music.
Make no mistake, my hats off to the pros both in technique and creativity, i’m too much of a drone, i build things to earn and have always done well there. I’m retired these days but i still earn because I’m still breathing and able to do so, but all my professional skills are antiquated so while I may be a former pro, these days i’m just feeding my terminal tinkeritus and making a little mad money doing it.

 

[LBS-bass]

Every now and then I start to answer someone on here and it turns into a long essay with a lot of my life story involved to show why my perspective has evolved as it has. I guess I like to write. Blah blah blah.

I won't bore you by adding it, but I will say that there's a lot of truth to a lot of what's been brought to mind here, and I also have some experiences that would challenge a few assumptions. At the end of the day it's not all that important. There's room for a lot of nuance in this world.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

Curious what people think about this one. I usually consider a "professional" of any kind, including music, to be someone that makes a reasonable portion of their living from the profession itself (either in the past or present). Might only be 20 to 30 percent of their income (maybe more), but still a decent percentage of total income, and enough to pay their own bills.

I know a person that regularly claims to be a professional musician, and has moderate skills as a singer-songwriter, but makes very little money doing it (1 or 2 low paying gigs a month), and is only somewhat known in our area, but definitely not beyond our small town. I have no plans to burst his bubble, this just got me wondering what other people view as a professional musician.

Peace

Hmmm....I would say that a professional musician earns (or earned) their living playing music. I was a professional musician back in 1971 through 1973 when I was touring with a nightclub group typically playing 4-hours per night, 5-nights a week, 50-weeks a year. If I'm allowed to say I am a professional because I earned my living as a musician, then I'd still call myself one, but that's not really fair to those who are still doing it. I really think it's whether or not you are currently earning your living as a musician.

A studio musician earning his living from sessions would also be a professional musician as would anyone who puts together all kinds of avenues such as teaching, regular gigs, recording, writing articles on music or music gear, etc. It doesn't have to all come from one place to make you a pro, but if you earn your living doing it, you're a professional musician. I did it by traveling all across the Western and mid-west US.

I was not a professional musician for the rest of my life, though I continued to play gigs. It was always a side thing. Using your definition of pro musician if I earn 20% to 30% of my income from music, then yes I am a professional musician still (at least until covid-19 hit). HOWEVER, my only other income is Social Security, so 20 to 30 percent of that is not a lot of $$. Two or three gigs a month would qualify it.

Here's a shot of our group, The Young Century's, back in '72 while we were in the midst of being "professionals". We actually had a keyboards player too but he was working out his notice so he wasn't included in the shots. Was a FUN time!

 

[Rip Van Dan]

I've had threads on here about this and here is what I learned.

My own personal take is that you can't call yourself a professional anything unless it's something you make your living at. It's the tax return test. If it isn't what's on your tax return under "occupation" it is not your profession.

That being said, there are many here who mix it up with behavior. And that's quite a reasonable thing to do. You can behave in a professional manner, i.e. take it seriously and do all the things that show you take it very seriously as a craft, and play at a level that would get you paying gigs if that's what you wanted to chase after as a living.

Many people here will argue that this makes you a professional. I would quibble just a bit and say that it makes you pro-level in your attitude and abilities, but the word "profession" has a specific meaning. So when I say I used to play professionally that means something to you... it means I made my living in music. Otherwise the term "play professionally" has no meaning at all. It could mean almost anything.

You can be a teacher without gigs and be a professional musician if you are a music teacher. But if you are otherwise not putting "musician" on your tax return, you are not a professional musician.

My definition only (well, that and the dictionary )

For three years I put musician as my occupation on my income tax forms. Haven't done that since. I was a professional musician way back in the early 70's, before most of you here were born. That doesn't make me a professional musician now. Am I a better musician now...I sure hope so! But I'm not a professional now. I still think I'm a good musician, but I don't make my living doing it.

 

[logdrum]

I couldn’t make ends meet without my performance gigs, including an MD position at a church. My day job makes up most of my income.

But, my day job is also a music-related field; I run the sound preservation studio for a large university music library. My musical skills (ability to read scores, extensive knowledge of music history) come into play for sure, but it’s primarily a sound engineering gig (which I am not professionally trained in, unlike music).

So I dunno, am I professional musician?

Yeah you are - in my book anyway

 

[lz4005]

Sorry, passive aggressive replies won’t help at all in a discussion about professionalism. If I could advertise as a bass player and stand a reasonable chance of passing most any audition, if i was making college fund and 401k money and able to live well while doing so, i’d consider myself a professional musician, otherwise i’m a hobbyist who gets paid to devalue the professional musicians who depend on music to make my living.
As for me having self esteem issues? Nah, I’m not a professional musician because I’m far too lazy to work as hard as they must for their daily bread, and why would I, I do better with much less effort. Music has always been enough of a passion i want to be involved, but formal study of it leaves me cold. I tried early and again several other times in my life to become more technically adept and every time i’ve given up because i can stay in my little lane and get everything I ever want out if music.
Make no mistake, my hats off to the pros both in technique and creativity, i’m too much of a drone, i build things to earn and have always done well there. I’m retired these days but i still earn because I’m still breathing and able to do so, but all my professional skills are antiquated so while I may be a former pro, these days i’m just feeding my terminal tinkeritus and making a little mad money doing it.

You think you devalue others, are lazy, aren't technically adept, are a drone, and have antiquated skills. But I'm wrong for suggesting you might possibly have self esteem issues?

 

[logdrum]

Again folks - look up your local AFM chapter. It's a fee usually.

They do not require a music degree.
They do not look at your 1040
They do not require you ro have all these ethics and behavior people list here. But if you are an ass, a complaint could be made and you cannot get a renewal. Word will get around
You need to list your primary instrument (they do not care about the brands either, Squier or Fedora does not mean anything, so this means any instrument is professional level)
Reading or great chops are not required. That's what auditions are for
Need your primary band name or manager
Some places require every musician to have a card (probably not anymore) or the band leader's is enough. Was my case when I played in merengue and salsa bands. I thought I was going to do picket lines and heard about the mob in other unions so did not do that then. Did it later but never made the same ratio of money. (65%)

AFM considers you a professional musician once you are issues a card and you are listed

They do help with contracts, pay scale etc.

The IRS - if that is your primary means of income, then you are a professional musician even if you make only 10K a year and can afford to live in Malibu because you are a kept man/woman, they do not care. If that 10k came from one gig you did on her friend's art gallery opening and all you did was played effects and 2 chords, you are still in the eyes of the IRS a professional. Brownie points if you got a musician card and your annual fee can be deducted as an expense.

Now certain institutions like orchestra will require more formal qualifications, but if you can play and read and pass the ausdition, you are usually in. Universities and colleges are where it gets difficult.

It's really not that hard to get that title.

 

[BluesWalker]

When I was a kid, I made all my money mowing lawns, raking leaves and shoveling snow. Was I a professional?

 

[LBS-bass]

When I was a kid, I made all my money mowing lawns, raking leaves and shoveling snow. Was I a professional?

If you were supporting yourself with that money? Yep.

 

[legalbass]

If you were supporting yourself with that money? Yep.

There are indeed professional lawn care businesses whose owners put roofs over their families' heads and their kids through college. They probably just got *started* mowing lawns in the neighborhood for some extra spending money while young. Which actually illustrates a great point: every professional musician started off as a non-professional musician at some point earlier in their lives. Nobody was born playing on a stage for pay.

 

[Nebadon2000]

If you were supporting yourself with that money? Yep.

Don't off hand assume all Bass Players are dense or maybe its not us.

 

[LBS-bass]

Don't off hand assume all Bass Players are dense or maybe its not us.

Huh? Ok, whatever, dude.

 

[fhm555]

You think you devalue others, are lazy, aren't technically adept, are a drone, and have antiquated skills. But I'm wrong for suggesting you might possibly have self esteem issues?

Absolutely. Simply because we disagree on what makes a professional you go passive aggressive and continue that track even after i assure you that’s not the case.
Why does accusing me of having emotional issues in any way bolster your opinion of what constitutes a professional, and how does a difference of opinion indicate the condition you continue to insist i suffer from, exists?
Could it be you are fine with sloppy work and jealous of those who live to a higher personal standard?
I don’t for a minute believe that about you because i don’t know you well enough to make that call, but since you insist on making this personal...

 

[Paulabass]

Anybody who spends more time on stage than on Talk Bass.
Anybody who has NEVER measured their string spacing.
Anybody who has never noticed if a bass is heavy or light.
Anybody who has had some of their backstage meal caked onto the back of their neck for 4 gigs or more.
Anybody who judges their BEST EVER gig by how many stairs at the load in.

 

[Killing Floor]

Wow this is a sensitive subject for some.
My buddy plays first trombone for a city symphony in a metro area in a top 10 largest US city. He earns $12,500 per year. He has a MFA in music theory from Columbia. Is he a professional musician? I say yes because he’s not a bass player.