How about an artist like Butch Walker? A legitimate touring and recording artist, but he brings home the bacon as a producer...which he started doing because he was good at it and it pays a helluva lot better than being a semi-successful musician. Is he still a pro musician...or does he have to be a pro producer because that's where he makes the real money? Personally, I would consider him both...
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What Constitutes a Professional Musician?
- Thread starter CoffeeLove
- Start date
Hardly the same thing. Making a musical mistake doesn't kill someone. Maybe graphic artist or something like that would be a better analogy.
I always chuckle when I look through craigslist under musicians, and see someone calling themselves a Professional Musician looking for a band to join. I always wonder, if they are a professional, would they need post on craigslist? Doesn't answer this question, just throwing in my two cents to see how much change I get back...
Those forms (1099, Schedule C and W9) are used to report self-employment income for tax purposes in the USA. Independent musicians often are considered working for themselves.Gotcha. As a non-US person I have no idea what those mean but I'll take your word for it
For an employer/employee relationships, the W2 and W4 tax forms apply instead.
Many (the majority?) of us deal with both. Day jobs for employers and self-employment music gigs.
Back on topic, I’ve been a working pro musician since I was 15 years old. Many times over the years, music was not my primary source of income. Now that my music industry day gig has suffered the slings and arrows of the current COVID-19 situation, making music is one again my only job.
Making music online (i do get paid for tHis), I’ve never been busier but, without live gigs, the pay suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks! For the 3–4 hours a week that I’m seen, 25–50 hours go into it. Every week.
Beets starving.
I voted "none of the above" because I agree with the tax return test. Earning 20-30% of your income from music makes you "semi-pro", period.
I try my best to behave like a professional musician, and have become an extremely busy weekend warrior (pre-COVID, anyway), but the bottom line is that most of my income is from my day job, and on my tax return I am a software developer. I am a programmer, not a pro musician.
"Semi-pro" doesn't mean "half-assed". I know some amazingly skilled weekend warriors who probably could go pro if they wanted, but I don't blame them for not wanting to take a pay cut just to call themselves "professional musicians".
I try my best to behave like a professional musician, and have become an extremely busy weekend warrior (pre-COVID, anyway), but the bottom line is that most of my income is from my day job, and on my tax return I am a software developer. I am a programmer, not a pro musician.
"Semi-pro" doesn't mean "half-assed". I know some amazingly skilled weekend warriors who probably could go pro if they wanted, but I don't blame them for not wanting to take a pay cut just to call themselves "professional musicians".
No such thing as “semi-pro” in my book. Engage in unprofessional behavior on my gigs, you don’t get hired again. No “semi” about it.
For decades, a Pro had a card from AFM (the musicians union) but that hasn’t been true for … I let my membership lapse in the 1990s so I don’t care anymore.
For decades, a Pro had a card from AFM (the musicians union) but that hasn’t been true for … I let my membership lapse in the 1990s so I don’t care anymore.
i spent 25+ years playing Renissance Faires
part time. while performing under contract and being paid i was indeed a “Professional”... according to my employers, patrons, the dictionary and others... are you under contract being paid ??? you a are professional... even if it is for an hour you have played professionally... ain’t “rocket surgery“
according to dictionary. com “or for gain”
following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain.
part time. while performing under contract and being paid i was indeed a “Professional”... according to my employers, patrons, the dictionary and others... are you under contract being paid ??? you a are professional... even if it is for an hour you have played professionally... ain’t “rocket surgery“
according to dictionary. com “or for gain”
following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain.
Yes. Many of spent years only eating and paying our bills form our music income and now do it part time. We are still professionals. A lawyer who does one case a year is still a professional even if they do it for free because they reached that level and still work at it. I do think many people have no past as full time pros but still are paid for performing and count as pros. I played for the U S Army for 12 years and retired after 21 year in, I think I am still a pro.
- Jan 26, 2014
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- I teach lessons and perform live music in and around San Diego CA. Sometimes I even make money doing it!
I’d say your friend is at best misinformed, at worst, a bit deluded. But good on you for being kind and not bursting their bubble. Who cares. We all think silly things from time to time.
I think the best way to describe the difference would be comparing/contrasting “gigging musician” and “professional musician.” Very generally speaking, all pro musicians are gigging musicians- but not all gigging musicians are pro musicians.
Speaking as a pro musician, unless a fair amount of income is derived from music (and all the prerequisite labor needed to make that happen), it would be a little bit tough to take that person seriously if they purport to be a pro. Gigging musician, or “I’m in a band,” would be immediately understood, at which point I’d demand they kiss my ring.
My understanding is if you get paid to do it regardless of how much of your income it is you are a professional!!
I think the person is probably just marketing him/herself. Which I think is fine and important in this day and age. We've all padded our resume's at some point, right? 
As long as they can walk the walk (regardless of whether or not we think their skill-level matches our expectation), then it doesn't bother me.
OregonMike
As long as they can walk the walk (regardless of whether or not we think their skill-level matches our expectation), then it doesn't bother me.OregonMike
In my career in the tennis business I have done almost everything so I always say “my profession (job) was in the tennis business” not to point out every job / type I’ve done.
So, if I was to say “I’m a tennis professional “ some think that means I played tennis all over the world on the tour. Well there is also teaching professional. Still in the tennis business and both are looked at as professional by both, touring you should be on the ATP or WTA rankings. Teaching you should have been Accredited by the USPTA or PTR ( for the most part I guess ) and be again a dues paying member.
So both are professionals right ?
In the UK I think you pay dues to be in the Musicians union, am I right? So in that I would consider that person a pro. Also I think there is no skill level needed to be a pro musician. Touring Pro, do you really need to know how to read or know theory ? Teaching , yea you should.
Thoughts ???
So, if I was to say “I’m a tennis professional “ some think that means I played tennis all over the world on the tour. Well there is also teaching professional. Still in the tennis business and both are looked at as professional by both, touring you should be on the ATP or WTA rankings. Teaching you should have been Accredited by the USPTA or PTR ( for the most part I guess ) and be again a dues paying member.
So both are professionals right ?
In the UK I think you pay dues to be in the Musicians union, am I right? So in that I would consider that person a pro. Also I think there is no skill level needed to be a pro musician. Touring Pro, do you really need to know how to read or know theory ? Teaching , yea you should.
Thoughts ???
While the tax return concept is the most valid, I would add that regular or even weekly employment in musical performance or production to be a factor. With the tole Covid 19 has taken on musical performances, I would imagine close to everyone who is not a songwriter or first call session player has to be downgraded to "less than professional". I have considered myself professional for the last 42 years, but as of March 2020, I do not feel worthy of the title. Covid has devastated my career, and I have had to scramble to redirect my efforts to maintain some semblance of validity in the music business. Fortunately, songwriting and some online session work is keeping me in the game, but it is a shadow of what once was.
Well , don’t you fill in that “block”? What does your W-2 or 1099 say or come from ? In the tax “answer” that is what I’d look at. See my “long” story on #217 I think for my thoughts if you are just reading for fun like me. Not trying to make an argument just board reading all the answers. Keep playing !!!
I think many fall into your thoughts. My “long” post again #217 (I think ) says what I think but one additional word means a lot. Teaching, Touring, part time, dues paying , then add the word professional. Rock on !
