From a construction perspective, what factors result in a good low B string sound? Some 34" scale basses have it, some do not.
Assume 34" scale. Ready, go!
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What creates a good low B?
- Thread starter darwin-bass
- Start date
It’s a string problem. A 34 inch neck of the same cross section is stiffer than a 35 inch neck.
You want a decent amount of tension. Most string sets have a B string that doesn’t have enough mass - the heavier the string, the more tension is required to bring it to pitch.
If you look at the gauges on a typical string set, you see progressions like 40-60-80-100, which is an arithmetic progression. That gives you uneven tension. Continue the progression to a 120 gauge B string, and you have a floppy B string. It’s not an obscure thing, your B string is just too skinny. Put a too small B string on any bass with the same scale, it’ll still be too floppy.
I like low tension on my strings - a 40-55-70-95 is relatively low but consistent tension. The B string that has the same tension is…a 130. If you’re using a 105 E, you need a 140 B to have the same tension.
Dies your string set have a big enough B string? Most likely not. Why is your B string floppy? It isn’t the bass, it’s the string. Before you go buying another bass to get a “better” B string, try a bigger B string.
You want a decent amount of tension. Most string sets have a B string that doesn’t have enough mass - the heavier the string, the more tension is required to bring it to pitch.
If you look at the gauges on a typical string set, you see progressions like 40-60-80-100, which is an arithmetic progression. That gives you uneven tension. Continue the progression to a 120 gauge B string, and you have a floppy B string. It’s not an obscure thing, your B string is just too skinny. Put a too small B string on any bass with the same scale, it’ll still be too floppy.
I like low tension on my strings - a 40-55-70-95 is relatively low but consistent tension. The B string that has the same tension is…a 130. If you’re using a 105 E, you need a 140 B to have the same tension.
Dies your string set have a big enough B string? Most likely not. Why is your B string floppy? It isn’t the bass, it’s the string. Before you go buying another bass to get a “better” B string, try a bigger B string.
I've explored this quite a bit although I don't know that I'm much closer to the answer! Strings are important IME much like @micguy says above. From a construction perspective, my "best performing" Bs have a stiff neck, "clamped" neck joint, solid beam from neck to bridge and a secured bridge connection. So breaking that down:
I'm sure other builders will have thoughts on the subject.
- Neck construction - Stiff woods used in the neck including the fretboard. High modulus of elasticity is key. Stiffening rods also help, I use aluminum beams for cost reduction, but carbon fiber is common too. I also find a zero fret to be helpful, as the shape of the nut can affect vibration of the B at that witness point. The zero fret removes this variable and makes it 100% consistent.
- Neck joint - neck thru or securely bolted connection: nuts embedded under the fretboard, t-nuts, inserts or BruceBars (search here for more info). They are placed before the fretboard goes on, and the bolts insert through holes in the heel to connect to the "nuts". The end is being able to pull the neck much more securely into the pocket than large wood screws can do.
- Solid beam to bridge - ensuring there is a strong beam to the bridge with a solid wood making up the structure. So when I've made hollow or chambered basses, I've kept this centre beam solid. You can build a bass with paulownia or basswood but the B may suffer.
- Bridge connection - if the body wood is not the most solid or you are using a combination of woods, embed a brass or solid aluminum plate into the body under the bridge and then bolt the bridge to that. Alternatively, you can embed a solid block of hard stable wood under the bridge and screw the bridge to that.
I'm sure other builders will have thoughts on the subject.
I was at GC playing some lower cost 5 string basses. All were bolt-on neck construction 34" scale. Some had a better integrated B string where the low D sounds like the open E, just lower. Others had a B string that sounded like a dull thud no matter the note played.
I've seen the same with higher price instruments I've owned. My Carvin bolt-on SB5000s for instance had very good B string sounds (not just the B note, but the whole string) while the neck through LB75 did not.
If the mass of the bridge has an effect then perhaps a B string can be improved in some cases by swapping a low-mass bent plate bridge for something more substantial? Maybe an ash body and maple or ebony fretboard works better than a mahogany or basswood body with rosewood fretboard? Though with the 2 SBMM 5's I played, the one with the lesser B performance was a maple 'board and the better one was dark (rosewood?)
I've seen the same with higher price instruments I've owned. My Carvin bolt-on SB5000s for instance had very good B string sounds (not just the B note, but the whole string) while the neck through LB75 did not.
If the mass of the bridge has an effect then perhaps a B string can be improved in some cases by swapping a low-mass bent plate bridge for something more substantial? Maybe an ash body and maple or ebony fretboard works better than a mahogany or basswood body with rosewood fretboard? Though with the 2 SBMM 5's I played, the one with the lesser B performance was a maple 'board and the better one was dark (rosewood?)
Great question, and great answers so far! I'll add to the OP's thoughts on the bridge, although I suspect rigidity of the bridge structure is probably more important than its mass. Bridges that provide a good amount of string breakover and where the saddles can be rigidly locked to the rest of the bridge seem to provide better B string sound. This really extends Beej's comments about rigidity of the rest of the structure of the instrument.
Interesting thread. I wonder if anyone can speak to string construction. I ask this because while string gauge clearly has an effect, I have experienced great results in tone and playability with Labella LTFs, low B is .118. I was surprised! Even did a double take on the package to make sure I read that correctly. Took a little work to dial in the intonation.
Conversely, some GHS tapes I have are much thicker, sound great, although with a looser feel. Neither type sounds dull or unfocused, same model bass.
This is my subjective observation, of course. Thoughts?
Conversely, some GHS tapes I have are much thicker, sound great, although with a looser feel. Neither type sounds dull or unfocused, same model bass.
This is my subjective observation, of course. Thoughts?
I 3rd this.
Mass is irrelevant unless it adds to the structural rigidity.
Also, you could have a very rigid bridge, but if it's anchored poorly, or to a soft, flexy wood, it won't matter how rigid or heavy the bridge is.
Always wondered why they never seem to try a thicker core wire for the B strings. Seems like that would increase the tension without having to add so much extra mass.
I've never got to the bottom of this so will give an anecdote rather than a definitive answer. My first 5er was a Tanglewood Curbow. It was great but the B was a bit thuddy and lifeless. I was so pleased to have a 5 that I just lived with it. Later I bought a set of strings with a much thicker B. It transformed the instrument. Litterally - the next day I came to it and the neck was banana shaped. I almost died of shock. Several (!) turns of the truss rod over a few days sorted it and it was good for years after with thicker strings.
Ric5
Inactive
- Jan 29, 2008
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I play 34" scale 5 string basses with a .125 B and I tune down to E flat, also 2 basses are 33", one is 32" and I am building a 30" scale 10 string (5 with octaves)
I find that a flat neck helps a lot, then pickup choices, pickup placement, and pickup height also helps. Electronics and eq make a difference as well.
I find that a flat neck helps a lot, then pickup choices, pickup placement, and pickup height also helps. Electronics and eq make a difference as well.
Some say the thicker the B, the less clarity it possesses. Thoughts on this?
(I am genuinely curious. This is not a baiting question.)
I haven’t done exhaustive testing - all the B’s I’ve used are 130’s. Most are fine, one that I’ve used was thuddy/indistinct. think it’s winding details, not diameter that makes the difference. Tapering near the bridge seems to help.
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I have 2 5 strings, and one has a .125 whereas the other is .130. The .130 is also a .040-.100 and the .130 seems to balance nicely next to the .100.
I had a .110 B on one of my 5 strings at one point, but I do not recall too much difference with clarity.
In my limited experience, I think neck rigidity, a tight body/neck connection (if bolt-on), and solid bridge seem to help. My G&L M-2500 has all three, and has a good B string.
I couldn’t agree with you more on this…. I’ve been using Balanced Tension sets on my 5’s and 6’s for as long as I can remember. I used to order custom sets from Circle K (now Kalium) when they were the only place to get them. It makes a huge difference in playability and tone.
drumvsbass
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- Aug 20, 2011
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The best B string I have ever heard or played was on a 34' scale Zon Sonus, the string was a 125 D'addario XL.
Runner up was an Ernie Ball, also 34' scale, string factory unknown, but it wasn't a telephone cable.
The thing that I hold as truth with 5 strings (and fretless), is you won't find great satisfaction for anything less than a couple of grand in the new market. I'm sure many will make claims of their Harley Benton 5er has a low B like a Bosendorfer, my jury is currently out.
Full transparency, my only experience with 5 strings has been working in a music store, or a few of my friends. I don't (and will probably never) own one.
The answer to the actual question... a very stiff piece of lumber (or carbon fiber) for the neck. That beats string mass and scale length. If you have a rubbery piece of wood that is 38 inches long, it won't matter if you put a .150 on there. It's gonna suck.
Runner up was an Ernie Ball, also 34' scale, string factory unknown, but it wasn't a telephone cable.
The thing that I hold as truth with 5 strings (and fretless), is you won't find great satisfaction for anything less than a couple of grand in the new market. I'm sure many will make claims of their Harley Benton 5er has a low B like a Bosendorfer, my jury is currently out.
Full transparency, my only experience with 5 strings has been working in a music store, or a few of my friends. I don't (and will probably never) own one.
The answer to the actual question... a very stiff piece of lumber (or carbon fiber) for the neck. That beats string mass and scale length. If you have a rubbery piece of wood that is 38 inches long, it won't matter if you put a .150 on there. It's gonna suck.
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Jazzdogg
Less barking, more wagging!
I've had no problems with TI Jazz Flats on any of my fretted or fretless five-strings; the volume and timbre of the B-string is consistent with the other strings, and the individual pitches are clear and easily discernible.
TI jazz flats have a .136 B string and are not Floppy at all.
