What, exactly, is a professional musician?

[Wasnex]

That's just a membership and paying a cut to the unions. By far the exception rather than the rule.

I totally agree...there really is no professional certification other than the ability to pay dues. The part of the process that mimics certification is the hiring process. The path to the union may be getting picked up by the local symphony...so you you have to pass an audition. But this is not a professional level certification, it's a job level certification which is bit different. I do believe unions develop a profile of their members that crudely documents your skills...such as if you read music or play by ear.

As I said earlier..."musician" doesn't really tick a lot of the boxes to fulfill the academic definition of "professional." I still think we should all aspire to be professional if we intend to play for pay.

 

[svtb15]

YUP.. LA and NYC.. Very tight and rigid standards..

Not 100% true. In some places, unions still have enough sway that you can't take certain gigs without being a member. Then, if your a union member you can't take jobs that don't pay minimum union scale.

 

[lavmonga]

TB has had this argument 1,000 times and every time the answer is the same as the answer to whether we need 5 strings, if relics are ok, or if lawsuit basses are ok; it's your opinion and has a wide spectrum of gray area.

 

[lermgalieu]

Well I have a friend that helps me work on my cars.. Does that make him a Mechanic? even if I pay him?
Sorry that i touched a sore spot. .I was just asking am open question

You didn't touch a "sore spot," you made a flawed analogy. Paying someone doesn't make them a mechanic or a musician. Not sure what the capital "M" is intended to imply. As note above, if this person regularly repairs cars on the side for pay, he may be a hobbyist or a semi-professional or something. Since I am not a "mechanic" and don't have much knowledge of it, I don't know what makes someone a mechanic, you can ask a mechanic about that. Let's use a more appropriate analogy - is someone who paints paintings in their attic after work an "artist"? I'd say certainly, yes.

EDIT: from Webster: "a composer, conductor, or performer of music". Judging from this definition, a person who plays a guitar in their attic is not a "musician," but if they perform that music for anyone, ever, they are. I could quibble with that, but fine. I don't think the same holds true for an artist, for reasons that I hope are obvious.

 

[lermgalieu]

TB has had this argument 1,000 times and every time the answer is the same as the answer to whether we need 5 strings, if relics are ok, or if lawsuit basses are ok; it's your opinion and has a wide spectrum of gray area.

Not really. If you make a living doing something, you are a professional. It's not grey at all.

 

[svtb15]

As I have told a few drummers. .TIME is not just a Magazine...


Also playing in Time does not mean its In the pocket and grooving.
Many years ago I was in session with Sly Dunbar In a NYC studio. .I learned more in a few days of playing with him than Anyone could learn in a lifetime of Pocket playing. I think I was 20..

Hit the nail squarely on the head! Hah hah! I've met a few uneducated musicians who couldn't find the groove as well, but really....I like this quote. May I borrow that for a while?

 

[lavmonga]

Not really. If you make a living doing something, you are a professional. It's not grey at all.

Yes, but if you have read all the other threads like this, there is a debate between getting paid to do something and it being your living; whether part time players are professionals or if music has to be your sole income. Some say you need to be a musician alone, some say you just need to be getting paid, THEN there is debate over how much you need to be getting and how much you make versus your living expenses, all kinds of stuff that cannot be truly answered.

 

[brianrost]

When you claim musical income on your taxes, how do you fill out the form?

I use schedule C and under "principal business or profession" list "musician".

BTW my question "am I a professional?" was rhetorical...I find it interesting that people worry so much about who's pro and who's not.

 

[lermgalieu]

Yes, but if you have read all the other threads like this, there is a debate between getting paid to do something and it being your living; whether part time players are professionals or if music has to be your sole income. Some say you need to be a musician alone, some say you just need to be getting paid, THEN there is debate over how much you need to be getting and how much you make versus your living expenses, all kinds of stuff that cannot be truly answered.

There is a difference between people arguing about stuff and something truly being a grey area, IMO. I agree that you can argue about some of that stuff, but I still think the definition is about as clear as anything gets, once you add in a little common sense (i.e. Joey isn't a pro even though his sole source of income is playing music, because he makes $40/month doing it and lives with his parents).

 

[lavmonga]

There is a difference between people arguing about stuff and something truly being a grey area, IMO. I agree that you can argue about some of that stuff, but I still think the definition is about as clear as anything gets, once you add in a little common sense (i.e. Joey isn't a pro even though his sole source of income is playing music, because he makes $40/month doing it and lives with his parents).

I happen to agree with your opinion, but there will be others who disagree, and that's fine too - it's been beaten to death around here.

 

[lermgalieu]

I find it interesting that people worry so much about who's pro and who's not.

Thank you. I find it interesting rhetorically, but I have no qualms that I am NOT a pro. When people have called me that in the past, I have honestly looked around like "are they talking about me?"

 

[lermgalieu]

it's been beaten to death around here.

1000%!!!

 

[silvertone]

It's been said before -
A pro is someone who puts $5000 worth of gear into a $500 car to drive 100 miles to a gig that pays $50.

 

[svtb15]

YUP

it's been beaten to death around here.

 

[Altitude]

Not really. If you make a living doing something, you are a professional. It's not grey at all.

It's not gray when it's that obvious, but maybe when it's not.

Consider this bio I pulled from Allmusic about a cohort of mine from the UT Jazz program. I redacted the name to not make it creepy if it comes up in a search:

Tenor, alto, and soprano saxophone player XXXXXXXX grew up during the 1980s in the Austin, Texas, area, listening to the sounds of the Marsalis brothers and other young jazz players like Mark Whitfield and Roy Hargrove. In sixth grade, XXXXXXXX picked up the saxophone, and by the time he was in high school, he was playing gigs around the Austin and San Antonio area. After attending the University of Texas at Austin and studying with renowned saxophone teacher Harvey Pittel, XXXXXXXX attended the Manhattan School of Music and later Southwest Texas State University, during which time he received the Downbeat Student Music Award for College Outstanding Tenor Saxophone Performance. XXXXXXXX's 1994 debut album Standards is a collection of straight-ahead bop and swing tunes featuring a team of top Austin area musicians. XXXXXXXX has continued recording in a similar vein: 1998's Kicks Are for Kids features XXXXXXXX with a team of stellar sidemen including famed pianist Ellis Marsalis, drummer J.J. Johnson, and Edwin Livingston on bass. XXXXXXXX tours widely and is a frequent guest on the jazz festival circuit, with yearly appearances at the North Sea and Montreux Jazz Festivals in the Netherlands and Switzerland, respectively. XXXXXXXX has been voted the top jazz player in the Austin Chronicle Reader's poll, and his group "Church on Monday" has enjoyed the longest residency in the history of the Continental Club, dating back to 2012.

Is this guy a pro? I think so, and he damn right plays like one.

If I told you he has a full-time job at Dell Computer, would you then say he's not a pro anymore?

 

[lermgalieu]

It's not gray when it's that obvious, but maybe when its not.

Consider this bio I pulled from Allmusic about a cohort of mine from the UT Jazz program. I redacted the name to not make it creepy if it comes up in a search:

Tenor, alto, and soprano saxophone player XXXXXXXX grew up during the 1980s in the Austin, Texas, area, listening to the sounds of the Marsalis brothers and other young jazz players like Mark Whitfield and Roy Hargrove. In sixth grade, XXXXXXXX picked up the saxophone, and by the time he was in high school, he was playing gigs around the Austin and San Antonio area. After attending the University of Texas at Austin and studying with renowned saxophone teacher Harvey Pittel, XXXXXXXX attended the Manhattan School of Music and later Southwest Texas State University, during which time he received the Downbeat Student Music Award for College Outstanding Tenor Saxophone Performance. XXXXXXXX's 1994 debut album Standards is a collection of straight-ahead bop and swing tunes featuring a team of top Austin area musicians. XXXXXXXX has continued recording in a similar vein: 1998's Kicks Are for Kids features XXXXXXXX with a team of stellar sidemen including famed pianist Ellis Marsalis, drummer J.J. Johnson, and Edwin Livingston on bass. XXXXXXXX tours widely and is a frequent guest on the jazz festival circuit, with yearly appearances at the North Sea and Montreux Jazz Festivals in the Netherlands and Switzerland, respectively. XXXXXXXX has been voted the top jazz player in the Austin Chronicle Reader's poll, and his group "Church on Monday" has enjoyed the longest residency in the history of the Continental Club, dating back to 2012.

Is this guy a pro? I think so, and he damn right plays like one.

If I told you he has a full-time job at Dell Computer, would you then say he's not a pro anymore?

He's a pro under the third alternate definition of "professional," see above.

 

[A. D. Fairhurst]

A friend of mine once said: "The only difference between a pro musician and a semi-pro musician is that one of them is on the dole!"

 

[Tampabass]

Denny Zeitlin is a clinical professor of psychiatry in San Francisco. He's also an acclaimed jazz pianist with many well-received albums to his name, and he's won DownBeat magazine polls (look him up). Because the bulk of his income is derived from teaching and practicing psychiatry, does that mean he isn't a "professional"? No, obviously. Point being, the percentage of income derived from music performance is irrelevant to the definition of "professional musician." Not sure "professional" is even a useful term when it comes to music. You're either a player, or you're not. (However, whether you play for money or for free is probably a good gauge of where you stand).

 

[LBS-bass]

Yes, I think it means "music as an actual profession". However, this is why I answered as I did.

I know pros who take day jobs at times to cover the bills...taxi driving, temp jobs, etc. Music is still their main profession. I also know pros who have dropped in and out of full time playing a few times over the years when gigs became scarce. I consider music teachers to be professionals.

I also know some pros who can't get through a song without major clams. I find it curious that they can support themselves when they are barely competent. So while I suppose commitment is required, a certain level of practice (or skill)...not really.

"Pro level" != "Professional"...there are plenty of musicians who could be playing as professionals but have never made their living from music. So they have the level of skill required. Example #1: Invalid Link Removed.

Then there's the unusual case of musicians who are out touring and recording but also have real careers outside of music, like the original lineup of the Invalid Link Removed.

Here's a question back: I spent most of my adult life playing music part-time for money, in groups composed of both part-time and full-time players, as well as sub work in all-pro groups. I am retired from my day job but mainly live off savings and Social Security. Am I now a professional?

I think several have brought up this question. For me I'd say anyone who has made their living or even significant income in the past from music but isn't doing that at the moment might be viewed as a non-working pro. I also think anyone teaching or otherwise using their knowledge of music for significant income is pro, even if they aren't performing.

 

[Wasnex]

BTW my question "am I a professional?" was rhetorical...I find it interesting that people worry so much about who's pro and who's not.

On one one level I honestly don't think it matters one way or the other. On another level I view the academic vision of a profession as a somewhat artificial construct that serves a similar purpose in society as religion. So although I could care less whether or not you consider yourself a pro, I do think it admirable that you pursue the characteristics of a professional musician.

Ultimately I think it's better to focus on doing a good job and being a good person/leader/manager. In my experience if you do these things, pay and promotion will follow if they are desired. And if you work pro bono, people will perceive you as being very professional. This seems to be exactly where you are, and where you want to be be.