Double Bass What is it with Bluegrass players?

[Gab124]

That hasn't been my experience. YMSB because of their "jamgrass nature" skews toward the college demographic; however, I see a nice mix of ages at most neo-bluegrass/Americana shows. Audiences are pretty mixed. That being said, I am almost always the youngest player at most of the jams I attend... most of the musicians at those jams are 40s to 50s, with a few 60+.

Understood, there are a lot of bluegrass shows and venues I have not been to so my personal experience is narrow. I did go to one festival in Guthrie Oklahoma once that had all the very traditional groups with traditional audiences and then this Czechoslovakian Bluegrass band that had a trap drum set and electrics and did a version of "Wild Horses" that was very bizarre and extremely entertaining. I bought a CD.

 

[Gab124]

TRADITIONAL? MY GAWt, deyr yoozin moar dan wun MYKE! :***: Blasstpheemers! Wuteffer happ'n t'dem gutten ol' daice wen der moosishuns gaddered 'rownd wun Myke?
Durn kids deze daice wit der mooltymyke settups!


I quite enjoyed my bluegrass band experience. I was way overplayin' my DB when I made a quintet out of the quartet of geetar, banjo, fiddle and demandoling I joined. I didn't have a clue about the traditions or the sound. The band reeled me in slowly, feeding me examples, gentle suggestions, nudges in the right direction – nobody said "you're doing it all wrong, idiot", just solid encouragement and edification ... at last I was starting to revel in the traditional role, trying to keep it simple while still tryin' to put my tiny stamp on things here and there when the plywood stage was pulled out from under us all 'cause the geeterist's job relocated him back Stateside – end of band.

The following vid, not my band...

Friggin awesome!!! Trad instruments but not the style.

 

[marcox]

Understood, there are a lot of bluegrass shows and venues I have not been to so my personal experience is narrow. I did go to one festival in Guthrie Oklahoma once that had all the very traditional groups with traditional audiences and then this Czechoslovakian Bluegrass band that had a trap drum set and electrics and did a version of "Wild Horses" that was very bizarre and extremely entertaining. I bought a CD.

I'll bet that Czech bluegrass band was Druha Trava. My band shared a bill with them when they came through Phoenix last year. Great stuff! I've seen videos/photos of their bass player rocking the upright and EUB, but he was playing slab at this show.

 

[Tennesseemick]

True for me too, since I'm in my mid 40's. But those definitions you mentioned are pretty old now. Even Jam Band is related to artists with very different sounds than The Dead. FWIW I love bluegrass, maybe the newer stuff though, we go see YMSB at least once a year and have for sometime.

I find myself dating myself more and more. I'm mid-40's, too. I was being subtly facetious regarding what is in a genre and what is not.

 

[sean_on_bass]

I can see where they are coming from. Upright bass simply has the sound and attack that is the norm in bluegrass music. It's one of those things that is inherent to the style. I would never solicit to join a bluegrass band without having a double bass, because i already know they wont want it.

Now since it is an open jam they should really be a little less snobby, especially if its electric bass or no bass. But my question to you is...if you love the music why not get an upright? I attended an acoustic jam yesterday and brought my upright, it was very well received and i got some phone numbers. Upright bass has opened up a lot of gigging/band opportunities, way more prospects than i had with electric. I seem to garner more respect and am generally wanted because i am what they called a "rare species". Take the plunge!

 

[sondrelj]

It's not all black and white, but the bluegrass police are some of the worst. And they forget the history. During the 80's and 70's you'd see many acts featuring bass guitar, most notably Hot Rize and J.D.Crowe and the new south. Even Earl Scruggs performed at the Grand Ole Opry with one of his sons on bass guitar, introduced by Bill Monroe himself. Let them say that they don't care for the sound, and I might even agree with them, but don't come tell me that there are rules to this.

In addition, with a poor sound system, or a piezo pick-up, the difference will be minimal on stage. You need really good sound to reap major benefits from your doghouse. Many touring bands also opt for the EUB, which, to my ears anyway, sounds much like a bass guitar with flatwounds and properly set eq.

That said, for jamming, nothing beats the upright, and acoustically, the music needs the kick of the upright bass. I took the plunge long ago, and have hardly touched my electric since.

 

[Tim Skaggs]

I play a Fender Jazz bass, a Kala Ubass, and a two string washtub bass that I electrified and now sounds like the voice of God.


Which bass and what kind of amp are you showing up with?

Are there guitarists showing up with Twin Reverbs & Telecasters? Are there any mando-birds & Deluxes on stage? Any Les Paul's and Peavey 5150's in the jam? Anyone showing up with a lap steel and a Peavey Nashville 400 rather than a resonator guitar? What is the common banjo being played? Anyone showing up with a Stealth Banjo & a Vox amp of some kind?

If anything similar to any of those instruments / amps are allowed in the jam, I see your point. If you are the only one showing up with an amplified instrument, you should try to see their point.

 

[turf3]

I saw where a string quartet needed a cello player and since I have been using cello music in practicing baritone saxophone for years, I showed up with the big sax, but for some reason they got all snotty.

When I brought my classical guitar to open mike night at the punk club, I couldn't get the crowd to quiet down enough so I could be heard. And then someone threw beer on me.

You know, I don't know what it is about these guys that run the singer-songwriter showcase at the coffee house. I know everyone else was playing guitars and singing, except for one gal who accompanied herself with an Irish harp, but they got all upset when my sixteen piece big band tried to play some Maynard Ferguson charts.

Man, those guys that run the blues jam sure are jerks. Who says you can't play the blues on the Highland bagpipes?

*******************

Really, nowadays the point of amateur bluegrass jams is to get together and play/sing traditional and near-traditional music using acoustic instruments. Acoustic means not amplified. If you want to start a bluegrass band using amplified instruments, go ahead. Lots of people have done it. They sound great. But the fact that a commercial band uses bass guitar for bluegrass music isn't really relevant. They also have big PA systems and make all their members fill out W-4s too. If I tell you we're going to have a potluck lunch at the Baptist church, are you going to insist on bringing a cooler of Bud because fried chicken and potato salad tastes so much better with a cold beer?

Happy.

 

[jeepnstein]

"If I tell you we're going to have a potluck lunch at the Baptist church, are you going to insist on bringing a cooler of Bud because fried chicken and potato salad tastes so much better with a cold beer?" Well now, that depends on the local congregation. Most likely you'll be relegated to the parking lot and sitting on the tailgate of someone's truck, but don't ask me how I know this. Oh, and be careful if anyone hands you a mason jar.

I find that what most bluegrass circles I play in want out of a bass player is just root +5. That's our lot in life. Everyone is trying to get things as tight and clean as they can and they look to the bass player to be that rock in a tossing sea of individuals. Most electric bassists can be accepted at some level as long as they stick to the root. Problem is many times a new guy will want to show off a bit and this upsets the apple cart. Doesn't have anything to do with being snobby traditionalists as much as it does just trying to get through the song well. It's all about building relationships within the group.

 

[David Jayne]

It's like jazz. They want 'that' sound. It's different.

 

[Feral Feline]

...
When I brought my classical guitar to open mike night at the punk club, I couldn't get the crowd to quiet down enough so I could be heard. And then someone threw beer on me.

I'm calling BS. Even punks wouldn't waste beer. Now if they'd spat on you...

...Who says you can't play the blues on the Highland bagpipes?

I've got a friend here in Hong Kong, Chinese chap who's bonkers about bagpipes – he can and does play blues on th'pipes.
'S true!

In fact, my bluegrass band played with him. Indeed, what is it with bluegrass players?



Unleash the hounds!

 

[martinc]

If you have to ask the question...then maybe you are not familiar with the bluegrass style. Do you know the material...and the commonly played instrumentals? Can you play on top of the time and not get in the way of the other players? Are you playing as if you are at a party, crawling all over the electric bass fingerboard putting out some tinny, trebly amplified sound as opposed to wanting to provide a solid supporting bass line?
If the answer to the first two questions is yes, then I would think you would be welcome at most bluegrass jams. If the answer to the third question is yes....well you may not receive a very warm welcome. After all it is a "bluegrass jam". And these days that includes some folk and country material.
I think other posters have touched on why electric bass players are not always popular at bluegrass jams. "Fitting in" is a big requirement. The role of the bass in bluegrass is huge.....so the reluctance to play with an electric bass player or someone with a washtub would be understandable. Most bluegrass pickers need a bass player that has great time and knows the music well in order for them to play the music properly. The bluegrass club I belong to has a "slow jam" for bluegrass novices. It provides a good grounding for people who want to learn about the music and help for people who are learning a bluegrass instrument.
So I would not say its "snobbery" if things don't work out for you at a bluegrass jam. If you are from a different musical background then sit back and learn what the role of the bass (electric or upright) is in the bluegrass context. Or start your own jam session aimed at whatever music you normally play.

 

[jthisdell]

I joined a bluegrass trio a year ago playing with my Fender P. It works and the guys had no problem with me but after time progressed I discovered it is difficult to play a traditional bluegrass line on an electric. The sustain and decay is just different and thus it is hard to get the timing right. On some pieces it is fine but when they expect a simpler, traditional, thump thump, root five, almost all half notes line I found it tough. I recently got an electric upright and after working with it for awhile that style of playing is much more natural on the eub, as the sustain and decay just simply works better. I would love to get a db but the size and transportation issues are more challenging and there is a much larger learning curve than I found on the eub.

 

[jthisdell]

Of course that being said, there is no excude for being rude. Some bluegrass players take themselves so seriously it just hurts. My banjo player is in another, more traditional band and he says they regularly argue about how to pronounce a word in a song, his guitar player won't get a decent pickup installed, etc. Kills me when trad bluegrass players won't accept new artists like Nickel Creek or Sara Jarosz because they aren't real bluegrass. Life is too short to not always keep an open mind.

 

[Bass Doc]

I am so glad the OP raised this issue. I also love seeing everyone's responses.
I think the answer will really vary, for everyone depending on where they live and who they play with.

For some groups who have trouble finding any bass player, certainly an electric bass player will be welcome. In a situation with plenty of upright players, electric player might find themselves at a disadvantage.

In my particular case I have been struggling with this for awhile. I have always felt the pressure of the need to bring the upright bass in some cases just for appearance"s sake. In some small jams, clearly you can hear the difference, and I myself prefer the sound of an upright bass. However, at larger jams it's really frustrating because the upright bass sound get drowned out anyway. After all the trouble I go to drag the damn thing in my car breaking my back caring it in and out the building, I find that at larger games I can't even really hear myself. Very frustrating.

Then there is the issue of performing with a band on stage.

I was really confused by what was right, until I finally settled it for myself in this way:

1 - For very small personal intimate jams (ie 4 to 5 people) -I bring my upright bass.

2- For a large Jam I will bring my electric bass so that I can hear myself.

3 - When I play with the band, I will choose based on what kind of audience we are playing to. If I think they are looking for a more traditional sound or appearance , I will bring the upright bass. If given a choice, I generally prefer the electric bass on very long gigs.

I have basically trained my band members to accept my electric bass in the following fashion (kids don't try this at home!):

After playing an upright bass for years, I showed up on a gig with a very rock and roll style solid body electric bass. I turned the amp up and I then started playing it with lots of fills and riffs outside of the bluegrass genre. Remember, this was at a real gig. They absolutely hated it, and told me so after the gig was done. BTW the audience loved it. Got compliments.

I then told them that I needed to to play electric from time to time, because I was having back pain in the upright was killing my fingers in three to four hour gigs. (True) I promised them that I would never play "the rock and roll bass", again. Instead, I agreed to go out and "get an electric bass that sounded more bluegrass." Which was what I wanted in the first place anyway. I bought an Ibanez arch top hollow body Electric bass with traditional appearance ie f holes. I then put on tape wound strings, and played it with a palm mute style which gave me a real thumping sound. I also went back to playing just roots and fifths. I also set the amplifier 2 give me as close a match to an upright bass as possible, and turned the volume way down. Mainly, I dialed most ofthe treble out. They absolutely were so grateful that it was not "the Rock and roll beast," that they welcomed the new bass because it sounded "bluegrass". Never heard a complaint since. ;-)

Also, I think one of the other posters got it right earlier when he said that sometimes what we do exams borders on cosplay. And in those cases the appearance of the upright bass is really, really important. So these days I have really let my anxiety, grief and frustration go by simply picking whichever instrument I feel personally fit the situation.

It's really a false choice to put yourself in a situation where you are "either an upright player or an electric player".

For many of us , we are both - and that is just fine.

The magic and difficulty comes down to figuring out who your audience really is and then matching the audience to the instrument that you bring that night.

your audience in some cases is actually the other jam members.

If the audience is looking for a traditional appearance of bluegrass band (what we call wallpaper bluegras) then the upright bass I would be the best instrument to bring.

So my solution for "which instrument you have to play" is to not force yourself into a corner and be open to both.

 

[Holdsg]

very well said Doc

 

[martinc]

jthisdell wrote:
"........My banjo player is in another, more traditional band and he says they regularly argue about how to pronounce a word in a song, his guitar player won't get a decent pickup installed, etc."

jthisdell: Hmmm. Can't remember the last time I saw "another, more traditional band" where the guitar player had a pickup installed. Doesn't that completely throw off the balance when others use a mic? One of the reasons I quit using a bass pickup and found a mic that worked well, was because of the difference between the pickup sound and the mic sound from the other band instruments.

 

[jthisdell]

Pat Metheny once responded to a similar controversy in jazz, I believe it was about the use of sampling and synthesizers and such. To paraphrase, he said he anticipated some kid showing up at a jam with some sort of a box or computer or something that hasn't been invented yet and playing with it. And if it sounded good and the kid was good at it, cool. Otherwise the music (jazz at least), never changes and you are not continuing an art form, you are playing in a museum.

 

[Feral Feline]

^ Yup. Breath new life into it. Besides, change is constant. I'm sure some of the old-timey stalwarts weren't happy the kids were "takin' thar moosik 'n' playn thart awful new bloograssy moosik with it, heh! Moosik theys calls it."

A lot of people would balk at a drummer bringing a computer and fingerpad to a gig/jam instead of their full drumkit.
David Haynes sure sounds great to me! Sounds like a drummer, plays like a drummer, is a drummer. Listen to the fills, changes, solo etc.



So, drums or no drums in bluegrass? If yes to drums, real drums or fingerpad-software samples played live?

 

[bluesbass060]

Great reading all the different views. I play in a traditional looking bluegrass band, and we play (traditional, newgrass, rock on acoustic instruments, etc.) different sets depending on the venue. We do a LOT of churches, and it wouldn't matter a hoot with most of them whether I'm playing the upright or the eub. At jams, I'll bring the upright. I don't have to bring an amp, and I don't have to second guess whether I'll be breaking some unspoken rule or unknowingly ticking off someone with a more "pure" vision of their music than I have. Ha!
On the same subject, yet different: We played a festival in Oklahoma this year, a wonderful time! Fantastic fans and musicians. They had ONE mic set up and another to hang on the bass. No problem for us, but I overheard a band talking to the sound guy before their set: "Hey, we need...let's see, 3 more mics for vocals and 4 more for instruments." The sound guy says slowly, "We got one." "Yeah, but we need like 7 more for our set. We don't play on one mic, so we, you know, need 7 more mics." Sound guy says,"We got one." End of conversation.
I still think this is hilarious, some of you may be incensed, but I chuckle at all the different ways we have to adapt to play what we love. Gotta smile, I ain't making enough cash to stress on it!