Double Bass What is it with Bluegrass players?

[Feral Feline]

I guess there's room for everything. Pure Bluegrass and Newgrass; Hard bop and New Bop.

Nonetheless, I can't imagine how boring the world would be if somebody hadn't decided to meld two differing musical styles at some point... I can only take so much banging on sticks and stones, and Gregorian chanting.

 

[Clarkybass]

I can only take so much banging on sticks and stones, and Gregorian chanting.

I think you may have just invented a new genre, 'Drum n Chant'

 

[Holdsg]

I had a "challenging" Thursday night.
First jam I went to, where I was just "filling in" while the regular bass player recovered from surgery, asked me not to come back because I made the regular bass player look bad. I'm too good, apparently, for that jam.
Second jam I went to (same night) plays much less familiar songs, so I'm always trying to sightread with my ears. I was mostly a mess all night, couldn't keep time to save my life. They might not like if I come back. I'm not good enough, apparently, for that jam.
Oh well, at least I still have my band and we're picking Saturday, with 2 gigs coming up. Maybe I'll try a different jam in a few weeks when my confidence returns.

 

[jthisdell]

I think you may have just invented a new genre, 'Drum n Chant'

But it's not traditional....

 

[martinc]

I had a "challenging" Thursday night.
First jam I went to, where I was just "filling in" while the regular bass player recovered from surgery, asked me not to come back because I made the regular bass player look bad. I'm too good, apparently, for that jam.
Second jam I went to (same night) plays much less familiar songs, so I'm always trying to sightread with my ears. I was mostly a mess all night, couldn't keep time to save my life. They might not like if I come back. I'm not good enough, apparently, for that jam.
Oh well, at least I still have my band and we're picking Saturday, with 2 gigs coming up. Maybe I'll try a different jam in a few weeks when my confidence returns.

Holdsg: Yup. Not all jams are created equal.
Some jams are made up of friends....so they want to protect their missing member. Social forces are at work which are out of your control so move on. Other jams are just plain bad because they either can't play very well or the material is out in left field. That's when you quietly fold your tent and leave. That's just the way it is sometimes. Not your fault so don't let it affect your confidence.

 

[ragtimelil]

I showed up at a couple of acoustic jams with a Ubass built on a small guitar body so it didn't have to be amplified. People were interested in it and it got some compliments on the sound. I had played both Fender Jazz and upright for years so I knew I wasn't that bad. Then the DB player showed up. Someone HAD to say, "thank heavens you're here. We needed a bass!"

 

[Whit Townsend]

Its all good. I started out playing with college buds who were much more open to newgrass and such. I played both slab and upright with them. I only bought an upright because we jammed and practiced so much around a campfire w no electricity. A lot of gigs Id play slab just because it was easier to haul to the gig, easier to amplify on stage, etc. The guys didnt really care as long as I was solid. In later years I joined up with some hard cores. Their idea of newgrass was the Osborne Bros. Naturally I hardly ever played slab with them. Maybe once or twice when the upright was undergoing repairs. I didnt have a problem with their attitude. It was their scene and I just worked to fit in. I really learned a lot from those guys about taste, timing, and what NOT to play. Where I live now Ive been unable to find any good bluegrass musicians to play with. So now Im playing upright in an alt country/rocknroll outfit with guys half my age. Its my first experience working with a drummer playing upright. Im enjoying learning all the ways to make upright work in this context, its a lot of fun. So dont get hung up on peoples idea of whats proper in music. If its good music, its worthwhile. Jump in and go with the flow and it will make you a better musician.

 

[WhiteLightning]

This is a funny thread. The Bluegrass Police, sometimes also known as the B Chord Mafia, can be a difficult group to harmonize with. I can't even count the times someone has heard my Guild DV4 and commented about it's amazing range and how much bass it has, but then followed up with "Too bad it's not a Martin". (Is that pickup hooked up to a little amp inside the guitar???) However, there's a few simple rules for dealing with these folks:

Hide their capos - you can give them back later unless they are really intolerant and you decide not to.
Play something so not-bluegrass that the old timers might think it's an original. Like a Prince song or something. If you can convert the old-timers the others will follow. Also, any typical jam circle will likely have a few other subversives attending. They will get the joke and play along. This will allow you to identify who your allies are so you can work together to form a plan to play a song in a key other than 'B'.
Number one rule: Fight fire with fire - simply play louder, like everyone in Bluegrass does if they dis-approve of something.

Hope this helps, and remember, Bill Monroe had an accordion player for a while.

 

[martinc]

This is a funny thread. The Bluegrass Police, sometimes also known as the B Chord Mafia, can be a difficult group to harmonize with. I can't even count the times someone has heard my Guild DV4 and commented about it's amazing range and how much bass it has, but then followed up with "Too bad it's not a Martin". (Is that pickup hooked up to a little amp inside the guitar???) However, there's a few simple rules for dealing with these folks:

Hide their capos - you can give them back later unless they are really intolerant and you decide not to.
Play something so not-bluegrass that the old timers might think it's an original. Like a Prince song or something. If you can convert the old-timers the others will follow. Also, any typical jam circle will likely have a few other subversives attending. They will get the joke and play along. This will allow you to identify who your allies are so you can work together to form a plan to play a song in a key other than 'B'.
Number one rule: Fight fire with fire - simply play louder, like everyone in Bluegrass does if they dis-approve of something.

Hope this helps, and remember, Bill Monroe had an accordion player for a while.

white lightening: if I am understanding this correctly, my advice is for you and your Guild is to stay away from any jam session where people ("these folks") are enjoying playing standard bluegrass tunes together. They don't need head games from people who don't respect what they are doing. Instead, gather up all the "subversives" and start your own jam. Life is too short to be upset at folks are are doing what you don't like.

 

[WhiteLightning]

white lightening: if I am understanding this correctly, my advice is for you and your Guild is to stay away from any jam session where people ("these folks") are enjoying playing standard bluegrass tunes together. They don't need head games from people who don't respect what they are doing. Instead, gather up all the "subversives" and start your own jam. Life is too short to be upset at folks are are doing what you don't like.

I think you're taking things too seriously... I know what circles to stay away from and which ones will be fun... If "purple rain" falls flat on its face, which it very well may do, at least you end up in a spot where you can get away with some Waylon or Grateful Dead. Most folks who are that serious about 'true' bluegrass (whatever that's supposed to mean) you can tell by their body language they don't even want unknowns joining, circle tightens up when you walk up... The kind of jam where they only play the same few hundred songs, over and over... That can be fun but I have more fun in jams that are a little more open minded. I mostly stay away from the stuffy circles, some folks are way to serious. I actually know someone who got his strings cut with wire cutters by the bluegrass police, no lie. (Although he did probably deserve it...) But anyone that serious can have fun playing their Bill Monroe without my presence...

 

[martinc]

I think you're taking things too seriously... I know what circles to stay away from and which ones will be fun... If "purple rain" falls flat on its face, which it very well may do, at least you end up in a spot where you can get away with some Waylon or Grateful Dead. Most folks who are that serious about 'true' bluegrass (whatever that's supposed to mean) you can tell by their body language they don't even want unknowns joining, circle tightens up when you walk up... The kind of jam where they only play the same few hundred songs, over and over... That can be fun but I have more fun in jams that are a little more open minded. I mostly stay away from the stuffy circles, some folks are way to serious. I actually know someone who got his strings cut with wire cutters by the bluegrass police, no lie. (Although he did probably deserve it...) But anyone that serious can have fun playing their Bill Monroe without my presence...

white lightening: Thanks for the reply.
I think most jam players are not in bands and likely don't have a lot of time at home to spend on becoming the next JD Crowe, Tony Rice or Edgar Meyer. They love traditional bluegrass music and a festival jam session is an ideal place for them to play it. It's a long time without festivals from September to May when you are itching to play with other people. In other words, this is not just casual stuff. Hence the "serious" approach.The music and their instruments are their passion. I've been there. Bill Monroe and Flatt and Scruggs tunes make up the basic material and that's about as far as they have time for, or want to reach, in their playing and singing. It's a wonderful feeling to play this with like minded people who have limited time for music because of work and family responsibilities. So when you are looking for music outside of all this, you are asking them to step out of their musical "place". They are not at festivals to play Waylon, Willie or any other non-bluegrass stuff. When you have to be back at work Monday morning, every minute counts at those festival weekends. No wonder you have been getting the cold shoulder.
Since I have been in bands I have played stuff by the Grateful Dead, John Prine, Statler Brothers(!), Merle, Marty Robbins and a lot more non-traditional sources....with a traditional bluegrass instrument band. I have enjoyed it very much because I had to learn new stuff and think much more about the role of the double bass in non bluegrass tunes.
But now, as a geezer, I look back to when I started playing banjo in the early 1970's (bass since 1997) and realize that some of my most satisfying musical memories came from those same festival jam sessions I have referred to, when I was not in a band.
So when you refer to the " B chord Mafia" and "Bluegrass Police" I think you ought to re-think your categorization and move on. For the most part, those same folks are probably just living out their dreams of actually playing the same music as their musical heroes. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[WhiteLightning]

Ok, not trying to start a battle here (the bluegrass police seem to find me, even on the internet!) but I don't get the cold shoulder much at all, and apparently I don't go to the same festivals because songs by all the acts you mentioned would be more than welcome in most circles at most of the festivals I attend. I do agree that having the core stuff under your belt is a great starting point for everyone to know common material. But when I get sick of root 4 5 in B for hours on end, I never really have problems finding a circle looking to play out of the box a bit... Many times we start our own only to see a couple hours later some B chord mafia types come to our campsite, join in, and have a blast. As long as everyone is having fun im happy, but if someone's trying to judge me for playing something from the wrong decade I don't take it lying down.

 

[Cristofre]

When I was about 20 years old, a traditional bluegrass band in town needed a bass player. I was without a band, and I usually played rock, but I was itching to play anything, so I went.

Picture this: 20 year old guy, LONG hair, shiny black electric bass. Everyone else, in their 60's, in overalls, and all had old worn acoustic instruments.
Regardless, they accepted me, and we played about 3 gigs before they let me go.
The problem was not so much my look or instrument, but that I could simply not keep up with the rest of them. They played circles around me and I was continually
lost.

Later on I bought an upright and learned to play it, but I rarely play bluegrass, I use it for rock, blues, folk, camping trips.
I mostly use my UB for the "look", the feel.

The relative rarity of bass players (that actually enjoy playing the bass) around here make electric bass pretty common in local bluegrass bands because it is easier to get a guy to switch from guitar to a more familiar instrument than start over from scratch with a fretless upright instrument.

 

[GregT]

I go to jams around the Branson area. Not bluegrass at all, but I still understand the felling of being the new guy. I play guitar and bass, so I have had lots of opportunity. Last week I went to a local jam for the first time and the guy running it was extremely short with me. I got up and played my 5 or 6 songs and sang them with my Martin. Plenty of applause and the guy running it really changed his tune for a minute. Then as another guy was getting up to sing and play guitar, the bassist said he was taking a break and asked if I'd play his 3/4 Kay. He knew I had an old German 4/4 at home. After a little more disrespect from the host, I played bass and it went well. After that, he was much more friendly. In my case it was just the new-guy syndrome. It wasn't the first time it had happened to me that way. They have their circle. The first time, the grudgingly move left and right and allow a guy into the circle (figuratively speaking). After a couple times, they willingly move with a welcoming smile. If I ever host a jam, I hope I can be like the guy who host one of the small club's jam down by the lake. He makes everyone feel welcome. I think you could walk in with a comb and wax paper and feel at home.

 

[Bass Doc]

....When you have to be back at work Monday morning, every minute counts at those festival weekends. No wonder you have been getting the cold shoulder...


Boy, this post really gave me a new insight into this whole situation. I stopped to think- when I go to a jam, what do I really want out of it? Answer: I want to play music.

I used to attend a jam every weekend at a local church and was VERY welcoming on out of genre or "original" material.

Now that my regular weekly jam session disbanded last year, I only get to jam once ever 3 months or so. When that occurs, I want to make the most out of every moment. I didn't come to sit and listen, I came to play. The jam only lasts 2 1/2 hours or so, and the microphone moves in a circle meaning I might only get to pick one or two songs for the day. When people play well known or easy songs, I get to play, and have fun. Last week, at our jam we had a series of people (about 5 in a row that played songs that were VERY unfamiliar to the group (i.e. they were the only one who could play) or God-forbid an "original" with bizarre and unpredictable chord changes. Impossible to follow.

Back when I had a guaranteed jam EVERY Sunday, I was far more tolerant of this kind of stuff. Now, the time is more precious, and I found myself actually angry for the very first time, feeling like my time was being wasted. I recognize that not everyone knows every song. But, when something WAY out of genre is picked that has high complexity and NO ONE else is playing out of 20-25 people, then something is wrong.

I appreciate that people write originals and enjoy non genre material. But when I have 2 1/2 hours once every 3 months - please don't showcase your new material here. Do it at a coffeehouse. We came to play.

 

[Cristofre]

....When you have to be back at work Monday morning, every minute counts at those festival weekends. No wonder you have been getting the cold shoulder...

I appreciate that people write originals and enjoy non genre material. But when I have 2 1/2 hours once every 3 months - please don't showcase your new material here. Do it at a coffeehouse. We came to play.

Have you considered starting your own jam session or getting helping getting a local one started? Sometimes when you want to get something done, you gotta do it yourself!

 

[GretschWretch]

Bluegrassers hardly have a monopoly on having to be back at work Monday morning and wanting to milk everything they can from the previous weekend's jam. "Outsiders" share this same sentiment. I learned long ago that one does not just "walk into" a circle. I get close enough to check my tuning against the circle, and then I hold my bass in front of me and stand motionless,
until I am invited into the circle. Never got any flak from that approach.

 

[bobsax]

I did an all acoustic gig the other day
We can crank it up and sing like Mariachi's or if people start to listen we can sing at a whisper.
For whisper singing I just barley touch the strings. It's an amazing sound and approach that can only be done without amplification.

my 2 cents

 

[lefty5]

this has been a great discussion,,,, i have been in bluegrass (formally classic rock) for 37 years,, played for everything from jams to chicken stews to 25,000 crowds at festivals as a banjo player (my wife and stepson are the bass players in the family) . and its a strange genre of music that has evolved over the years.
many of the traditionalist of this music expect you to walk out with 1 guitar,mandolin,banjo,fiddle, and doghouse bass period ! you must pay bill monroe or flatt and scruggs. now that being said,,, during the past 15 or 20 years the crowds have became much younger and the musicians have gotten alot younger, so the music has changed. bands like the steep canyon rangers, nickel creek, AKUS, etc etc have brought new blood and new sound to the business,,, won tons of awards and fans,, oddly enough this year the earls of leicester won a lot of awards at IBMA and are a throw back to traditional grass.
regardless what i have learned after studying this music and playing it at all levels the past 30 some years is the best bass players in the biz are the ones no one notices EXCEPT other bass players. its like i tell my wife when she complains about not doing alot of fancy stuff and walking chords through out the song,, you just keep time and hold it all together.... thats your job. you never miss a bass until you remove it from the total sound of bluegrass... i had to prove how true this was to her in our little studio one day when they were doing some recording. we listening to play back and i totally took all the bass out and looked at her. i said there ,,, now you know why.
electric verses double bass ? well double bass is going to win out every time in the genre,,,,, i dont make the rules ,, just gotta live with them. when ever i hear the doghouse bass its such a rush ,, regardless of what kind of music it is in. the stuff that brian setzers band does just blows me away,, some of those rockabilly bass players are from another planet kinda like bela fleck is to me on the banjo.
i think that the pure sound of the upright is what people expect along with the visual appearance on stage. it takes them back along with the style of music,,, i tell new bands i help out ,, in this style of music you are creating memories,,, old and new. if the upright bass is an essential part of the WHOLE picture so be it.



terry m

 

[bobsax]

That's some real good insight Terry. I'm a busy player. I like to do a lot of non traditional playing that's why I like to be in charge
....but when working as a sideman and getting paid , your advice is golden.