Double Bass What is it with Bluegrass players?

[martinc]

I am bluegrasser who also plays jazz, rock, blues, folk, reggae and jamrock (GD).
Upright bass has room filling propulsion amidst other acoustic instruments that electric basses seems to drown out.
I am no purist - but using the right tools in the right context has merit.

But so called "bluegrass Nazi's" are common in the Bay Area and it's best not to ruffle feathers when one is depended upon to, as some one here so eloquently stated: "drive the train," when playing bluegrass bass.

About 10 years ago I worked at a (now defunct) guitar store in Berkeley called the 5th String. The owner's at the time were aware that the local community shopped at this store because of they stocked the sort of instruments favored by bluegrass purists: Martin's with Spruce, (preferably Adirondack Spruce) tops with mahogany or rosewood backs and sides and the typical range of maple and spruce mandos and Gibson Banjos in all the typical flavors (walnut, mahogany or maple).

Anytime the store buyer veered from the tried and true bluegrass formula at the higher end of the range for each instrument these instruments would not sell.

Some of these instruments were kick-ass axes but the traditionalists wouldn't buy em.

I wound up being given a custom Martin D-35 built on the same specs as a Signature Ernest Tubb Model sans the bells & whistles lapiz lazuli inlay...

The guitar I was given is worth roughly 4 grand but no trad bluegrasser would buy it because of it's "Italian Alpine Spruce Top and Forward Shifted Bracing.".

I love it and it kicks ass over my more desirable to the bluegrass crowd Herringbone D28.

Go figure

Silvertone: Thanks for the employee perspective.
However you don't have to be a "Bluegrass Nazi" to be responsible for the conclusions you have drawn. My thoughts:

- there is no need to buy a high end Gibson banjo. They had the same tonerings and hardware as the basic Mastertone models. Why pay more for fancier inlay designs and purfling? Common sense.

- re the Martin D-35: No D-35 I have heard comes close to the balance between the ringing high notes and powerful lows of the Herringbone D-28. That great balance is what bluegrass guitar players want when they have to be part of a band. A guitar player doing strictly solo work would not choose a Herringbone. The right tool for the right job....at the right price. A Herringbone D-28 costs well under 3 grand.

So I would suggest that other factors are at work here. There are practical reasons for buying the standard bluegrass instruments.

Things are changing though. Guitars made by Gallagher, Collings, Bourgeois and other small companies are also seen a lot by bluegrass guitarists. Same as banjos eg Huber, Neat, Sullivan, Arthur Hatfield etc. However, the models that closely resemble the dimensions of Gibsons and Martins appear to be the most popular. There may be a bit of a traditionalist argument there but it also shows that the players of today are willing to look for a different sound from their instruments.

Same thing with basses. There are lots of Kays still in circulation. I would agree that the reason for that is more likely to be "traditionalism" because there are a lot better -sounding plywood basses available today. Even though SPBGMA wants no part of electric basses, non-traditional double basses are common.

 

[silvertone]

Martin C

My custom D-35 is not like other D-35s.
As stated it was based on an Ernest Tubb Signature Martin and has an Italian Spruce Top - which I believe is a slightly harder and more responsive top wood then the standard sitka. Also the forward shifted bracing makes this both bottom and top heavy and I have A/B'd against my HD-28 and it's more potent sounding and more responsive.

Most players I know who pick guitar in bluegrass contexts opt for vintage D-18s. These generally have less overtones and the mahogany back and sides provide (IMH but somewhat experienced opinion) more ambient tone that a player can hear than the Rosewood of a 28, which in my experience goes right out the sound hole and is less audible to the player.

 

[martinc]

Martin C

My custom D-35 is not like other D-35s.
As stated it was based on an Ernest Tubb Signature Martin and has an Italian Spruce Top - which I believe is a slightly harder and more responsive top wood then the standard sitka. Also the forward shifted bracing makes this both bottom and top heavy and I have A/B'd against my HD-28 and it's more potent sounding and more responsive.

Most players I know who pick guitar in bluegrass contexts opt for vintage D-18s. These generally have less overtones and the mahogany back and sides provide (IMH but somewhat experienced opinion) more ambient tone that a player can hear than the Rosewood of a 28, which in my experience goes right out the sound hole and is less audible to the player.

silvertone: Thanks for the reply.

re: Your custom D 35 being "more potent sounding and more responsive" than your HD-28. Sounds like a good 'un. Also more expensive than a Herringbone 28. How does it compare with a D-41 or a D-45?

I agree with you assessment of the D-18. I referred in my post to the HD-28 being good in a band context. An HD-28 can be great on stage but overpowering in the studio. My experience is that the D-18 is a much better (sweeter sounding) guitar to record with.

 

[Jake deVilliers]

Jesus, now its a shaging bluegrass guitar thread...

 

[Steve Swan]

It gets a lot worse from here. "The Stanley Brothers are the best. I HATE Bill Monroe." or "Bill Monroe is the best. I HATE the Stanley Brothers."

World Music, anyone?

 

[jthisdell]

IMHO this thread shows why the entire bluegrass forum should be banned

 

[martinc]

Jake: Not really.

This somewhat imflammatory thread title has morphed it's way through seven pages of the same tired old "traditional v contemporary" bluegrass and "electric bass" issues that keep re-appearing on other threads. So when "silvertone" chimed in wondering why traditional bluegrassers did not buy the expensive versions of standard bluegrass guitars and banjos...it was welcome relief from what had been discussed before. Unfortunately he then insisted his guitar was better so everyone should have one.

Spring is coming.....so maybe we won't have as much time on our hands for a while to spend on debating these issues where there are no right or wrong answers. Just different opinions.

 

[thmsjordan]

Hi everyone,

I don't question their right to make any rules they want. I just haven't run into this exclusionary kind of attitude with any of the other types of players I come in contact with. To keep the music alive I think we have to make the "roof" larger, not smaller.

I appreciate all the comments

I know it happens in traditional Jazz circles at times, though again many of those guys (myself included) double on electric and acoustic, so there is is a preference in Timbre. There is more going on sometimes than someone just being a snob. Sometimes it is just snobbery so each case needs to be taken on it's own merits/issues

There are some folk who play traditional music to get away from all the volume electronics have introduced over the years. I HATE playing with most electric guitarists because of the volume. It is a rare player that knows how to turn down and blend in to an ensemble. Those players who do are wonderful to have though.

 

[Jason Sypher]

Unfortunately, if you show up with an instrument that isn't really in the genre you're going to get some grief. I played Victor Wooten's banjo bass with Bela Fleck and wished I had an upright the whole time. But it was Bela's gig and Bela's call. Instead of making yourself a square peg from the get go you should find a jam where electric bass is wanted, end of problem. I play a little fiddle and would not want to hear an electric bass backing me up on an oldtime tune. It just doesn't sound right to my ear. However, if I was playing some George Jones tunes I might prefer an electric. If you truly love that music then I suppose you listen to a lot of it and must also be attracted to the upright bass underpinning of those tunes. If it's something you really love then get an upright or just borrow one at the session. Once they see you are making an effort they may be more amenable to the occasional electric bass.

 

[Feral Feline]

Show up with a Sub Phatty and enough power and speakers to blow them away...

 

[Jay Corwin]

Oh hey guys - sorry to derail all the negative nancys chirping up in here, but I took part in a slapped together bluegrass band yesterday. We played together in a sugar shack barn loft thingy as part of the NYS Maple Festival weekend. There were three guitars, two fiddles, mando, banjo, and yours truly on bass. Everyone just called out songs and keys, and we played, for four hours....for free (well not exactly....we had an unlimited supply of Sahlens hotdogs cooked in maple syrup, doughnuts, coffee, and any other maple syrup product one could have imagined. You haven't lived until you had a Sahlens Maple dog).

No one looked at head stocks for brand recognition. No one cared I didn't play a Kay. No one said anything about the *gasp* Ibanez mandolin. Everyone was pleasant and complimentary of the other musicians. Everyone took turns and was polite. We even played two songs in the key of B. I even got invited to some other jams. I pumped root-fivers for most of the day, while the other instruments all took solos. Pictures and likes happened on Facebook. I made friends. I HAD FUN!

Now you can return to squabbling over the sonic characteristic of every Martin guitar ever made, and how snooty people are at bluegrass jams when you bring your bass guitar and amplifier.

 

[jasonrp]

I've been doing similar lately. They call the key, I watch the guitarists hands and root five for 3 hours. It's really fun and when you get 3 guitars, a few banjo's, and some mandolin's in there, the sound is great. Some times another bass player is there, and I just play an octave higher. Since he doesn't slap at all, we get a sort of chorus sound going on our basses.

Nobody cares, we just play.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

Pretty much since I started playing the DB over forty years ago I've been bringing it to gigs where they might have preferred a bass guitar. The only way to gain any kind of acceptance for an instrument not traditional to the genre is to have a situation where you show up and they have no alternative but let you play, take the initial grief with confidence and good humor and then play your mother ****ing ass off completely in the bag. It's always a risk though and if you need the money and/or wanna get called back it's probably not a great move. Regardless of how good you sound some folks will always be listening with their eyes and you can't do much about that. And really how much fun is it to play with people who don't want you?

 

[Remyd]

Our group leader has encouraged people to call songs that might not be bluegrass, but to do them in bluegrass style.

Turns out Pony by Genuwine is kinda interesting sped up to bluegrass tempo with trad harmonies. I love my Sunday jam!

 

[jthisdell]

I've been doing similar lately. They call the key, I watch the guitarists hands and root five for 3 hours.

I am now playing in a second band doing gypsy swing jazz. I can't tell what chords they are playing by just watching their hands, lots of dim, 6th, inverted and weirder chords that I don't know. So after watching hands for 40 years I am now concentrating on the charts and making my ear work a lot harder. Good exercise.

 

[jasonrp]

It is. I've got a cheatbook (parking lot pickers) but they almost never play in the same key as the book so I'm getting a lot of transpose on the fly practice. I'll watch the guitar for changes when the song doesn't do 1,4,5's or fallback to the cheatbook if I can.

 

[bassfran]

I've been doing similar lately. They call the key, I watch the guitarists hands and root five for 3 hours. It's really fun and when you get 3 guitars, a few banjo's, and some mandolin's in there, the sound is great. Some times another bass player is there, and I just play an octave higher. Since he doesn't slap at all, we get a sort of chorus sound going on our basses.

Nobody cares, we just play.

 

[martinc]

 

[jasonrp]

Nobody's has done the dueling banjo's thing yet. I'm guessing it might be a bluegrass rule since the banjo guys don't joke about it.

I did bust out "Superfreak" while we were trying to decide on a tune last week. The other bassplayer seemed receptive to it..

 

[Jay Corwin]

Nobody's has done the dueling banjo's thing yet. I'm guessing it might be a bluegrass rule since the banjo guys don't joke about it.

I'm guessing that's the equivalent of asking a fiddle player to do Devil Went Down to Georgia. It's a dead give away that you don't know anything about the genre.

A woman asked my old time string band to play Mustang Sally or Brown Eyed Girl or one of those horrendous cover band staples once. I can't remember which one it was. For the rest of the set I introduced every song as "Mustang Sally" or whatever tune she asked for. Then we would launch into what ever came next on our setlist. The whole band laughed each time. I'm pretty sure the woman did not.