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What is jazz?

#41
jazz, dead? No, not at all. There's a vast range of very creative jazz happening.

As far as self-gratification goes, there's nothing worse than a pop/rock artist who plays the same music, the same way, at every arena show. That's creative?

And you have to be careful preaching the gospel of "relevant" music. Is "relevant" just what dominates the pop charts at the moment? Is "relevant" just what appeals to the 14-29 age group?

Trying to figure out what's "relevant" and playing only that is kind of a trap. You can end up pleasing nobody.
 
#42
superbassman2000 said:
I say we now call jazz "musical intercourse"
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That would be in keeping with the original meaning of the word, originally: jass.
Jazz without context in meaningless. Even being born in '56 and being now in my 50s, I related to the rhythm section, the beat, NOT a modulating melody (in swing time) like my parents generation was exposed to. Without incorporating rock and classical music into my improvisational practice, (the musics I grew up with), I'm just playing fake jazz. I didn't grow up anywhere near a tin pan alley! I have heard that music in movies, though...
Now, Mingus...I can get his stuff via Ellington. Miles in '65 is where I start.
 
#45
Tampabass said:
jazz, dead? No, not at all. There's a vast range of very creative jazz happening.

As far as self-gratification goes, there's nothing worse than a pop/rock artist who plays the same music, the same way, at every arena show. That's creative?

And you have to be careful preaching the gospel of "relevant" music. Is "relevant" just what dominates the pop charts at the moment? Is "relevant" just what appeals to the 14-29 age group?

Trying to figure out what's "relevant" and playing only that is kind of a trap. You can end up pleasing nobody.
Click to expand...

Of course. Again, I'm being a little extreme. And of course, there is wonderful improvisational music going on that is relevant to an audience, albeit a VERY small audience.

However, many of the 'jazz' players I know are embittered DB players who can't understand why no one wants to hear Oleo at 240 clicks anymore. That, to me, is no different than the poor slobs playing Lenard Skynard tunes at the local bar for the same $75 a night the jazz guys get for swinging 60 year old tunes (which of course, if you are happy doing, then no problem!). Both of these types of musicians also think that pop music is 'playing the same thing over and over', just like many pop musicians think that jazz is just mindless, non melodic noodling.

Most players who only play in one 'category' tend to be clueless and dismissive of other types of music. It's just the 'old type' jazz players take this to the extreme, which is why they are so fun to tweak:p
 
#46
KJung said:
:D Sounds like every old guy talking about every young guy.

Example:

Big Band Trumpet player in 1940: 'Yeah, all these guys want to do is solo over changes at fast tempo's. No one can read accurately and use dynamics any more. If only these people would get disciplined and the listener would make the effort... THE BIG BANDS WOULD BE BACK' :D:D:D

I'm of course being a little silly to make a point... but not that silly. As one who made his living playing jazz gigs for many, many years through the 80's (before all the jazz gigs died), I surely respect the music. I find much of the pop music I mostly do today equally challenging to PLAY CORRECTLY (accurately, grooving, etc.). It's a different kind of conversation within the musical unit, but an equally difficult one IMO.

I just was never one to 'look back' and hang onto something that is, for all purposes, a dead art form. That being said, I like buring over Stella as much as anyone. I just realize that it is more for self gratification than for anything that is relevant to anyone anymore.

IMO!
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Well - Jazz doesn't have to be about showing how good you are over a limited range of "standards".

Most of the current Jazz I listen to is all original compositions - so, probably my favourite player is Dave Holland and his quintets and other bands play his own tunes in odd-time signatures etc.

I just bought his latest CD - which is a collaboration with a great flamenco guitarist from Granada, Spain - made in Madrid. There is great interplay there and lots of improvising.

Jazz doesn't have to be limited - just write your own compositions - the trumpet player and pianist in my regular band are always writing new tunes for us to play! :)
 
#47
BassBrass said:
That would be in keeping with the original meaning of the word, originally: jass.
Jazz without context in meaningless. Even being born in '56 and being now in my 50s, I related to the rhythm section, the beat, NOT a modulating melody (in swing time) like my parents generation was exposed to. Without incorporating rock and classical music into my improvisational practice, (the musics I grew up with), I'm just playing fake jazz. I didn't grow up anywhere near a tin pan alley! I have heard that music in movies, though...
Now, Mingus...I can get his stuff via Ellington. Miles in '65 is where I start.
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I started with Jaco and Weather Report and worked my way back to Miles - at first I only liked fusion - but as I got to play more and more Jazz tunes , I discovered all the little things that made them interesting and gradually after playing hundreds and hundreds - started to really get into Jazz from the 60s.

I find that I only really like a lot of tunes when I have tried to play them live with a band - then they get stuck in my head and I grow to love them!

I can remember "not getting" loads of tunes that I now take for granted as works of genius - when I was a 20-something aspiring bass guitarist!! :p
 
#48
JohnMCA72 said:
Jazz is where everybody in the band is playing a different tune, simultaneously.

:hiding:
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That really only happens in "Free Jazz" or the work of Olivier Messaien - there is a piece he wrote where about 14 wind instruments all play different, transcribed birdsongs at the same time!

Having heard that in the concert hall - I can tell you it sounds nothing like Jazz or anything else! ;)
 
#49
svtb15 said:
ever go to UNT in Texas? many kids with jazz chops but saying nothing musically....They can solve the math problem but they cant pass the test...
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I've never posted on this site before, but I did feel compelled to respond to the above quote. First of all, I did go to UNT, and I did feel that musicality could often be lacking. But don't ever make a blanket statement about a place, school of thought, or group of people. There's plenty of alumni out here in NYC that are making great music in all genres. My guess is that you'd be happy, and lucky, to work with many of them.

Second, I don't feel that criticizing musicians in an early stage of their development really proves your point. Jazz requires a lot of discipline, and while technical ability may come quickly, musical maturity very often does not. Fresh out of music school hot shots can be really annoying, but be an adult and keep it all in perspective. Becoming proficient on your instrument with good time and a good tone is quite an accomplishment. Give credit where credit is due.

Oh, and keep your ears open - you might learn something.
 
#50
I agree 100% and in any case - it is bizarre to characterise a whole style of music by the actions of a few people straight out of school - that is clearly not what Jazz is about and says nothing about the true masters of the art like Dave Holland and Wayne Shorter etc. who travel the world and make great music with all sorts of great musicians, bringing their many decades of experience to music-making now at packed concert halls.

Jazz is being made today all around the world by great musicians who actually have a lot to say and have great integrity as artists - this is its legacy - not some bored college kids...:hmm:

It I look at the music listings for London any night of the week - I will see dozens of great Jazz concerts that will sell out and lots of great artists who are carrying on the tradition.:)
 
#51
I think I'll have to rethink my definition of "musical masturbation" the way jazz is being accused of being "musical masturbation" in this thread.

I thought the term would've referred to exhibition of technical prowess with a lack of musical appeal. Jazz, IMO, would never qualify as musical masturbation. In jazz, you have the show of technical ability but it always seems like it's serving a musical purpose.

And what's all this talk about the correlation of jazz and age? I'm 19, I've been a fan of jazz since I was 14. I don't just like jazz fusion, I like even the more traditional forms of jazz, even as orthodox as the music of Wynton Marsalis. Maybe it's because of a fairly active jazz scene here in Calcutta.

Then again, maybe I'm just aging real fast :p
 
#52
champbassist said:
I think I'll have to rethink my definition of "musical masturbation" the way jazz is being accused of being "musical masturbation" in this thread.

I thought the term would've referred to exhibition of technical prowess with a lack of musical appeal. Jazz, IMO, would never qualify as musical masturbation. In jazz, you have the show of technical ability but it always seems like it's serving a musical purpose.

And what's all this talk about the correlation of jazz and age? I'm 19, I've been a fan of jazz since I was 14. I don't just like jazz fusion, I like even the more traditional forms of jazz, even as orthodox as the music Wynton Marsalis. Maybe it's because of a fairly active jazz scene here in Calcutta.

Then again, maybe I'm just aging real fast :p
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I'm with you and it's good to hear that people in India seem to be a bit more "open-minded" than in some places...;)
 
#54
One issue is what others have touched on, namely the traditional vs. the evolving. With a genre that's like 100 years old, and one that's built on improvisation as a near-defining element, it's natural that it would evolve. But like any evolving thing, you've got people who branch off at one point in the evolution and want that to be the gold standard. And there are many such branch points and many adherents to each.

I see guys at the Rhythm Room here in PHX on Tuesday nights (Rockabilly night). They have hair pomade (a la George Clooney's character in O, Brother), rolled up, unwashed Levi's, and a pack o' smokes rolled up in their white T-shirts. Nothing past 1960 is allowed on stage for these guys. They bring their gear in bowling ball bags older than they are. They use old Gretsch guitars and Fender amps. It's an interesting anachronistic subculture, idolizing things that existed before they were born.

A funny anecdote from a drummer friend. Many years ago, he went into Atlanta Pro Percussion. He got to talking with a salesman, and the salesman says, "You boys like jazz?"

"Sure," they say.

"Well, on Saturday nights, we got about 12 guys up on stage playin' a little 'Stairway.'"

So, to this dude, 'Stairway' was his version of jazz, meaning, I think, that there was some improv going on. Like people who think that Phish, The Dead, Allman Bros., etc., are jazz. Sure, they have jazz influences, but they are most definitely not jazz. I'd draw a Venn Diagram if there were an easy way to do so here...
 
#55
Please, if you don't think you like jazz, check out some:

* Pat Metheny
* Brad Mehldau (with or without Pat Metheny!)
* Bill Frisell
* Oliver Nelson's Stolen Moments (Nelson's sax solo on the title track is one of the best solos I can remember--it is so beautifully structured)

You may still hate it, but at least you'll hate it for stronger reasons, I guess.
 
#56
Mark Wilson said:
To each their own. But, I'm in the same boat.
i've been studying jazz at school now for nearly 5 years, so it's been pretty intensive.

I JUST DON'T GET IT. I respect it as a virtuosic artform, but I don't enjoy playing it at all, there are a HANDFUL of jazz musicians I like listening to like Pat Metheny. But even so, it's his more "Fusion" stuff.

To the OP. I have no idea what jazz is. it's something one finds out on their own.
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What are you going to do with a degree in jazz electric bass, if you don't get it, and don't like it?

Imagine an engineering student saying: "I've been studying engineering for five years, and I just don't get it."
 
#58
Jazz is freedom unlike anything. You can say that about all genres of music although someone out there will disagree. Freedom is not playing the same bass line the same way time after time, freedom is running that bass-line all over the chord changes without ever seeming to miss a beat. It is stepping outside the rules just enough to make it tingle your senses.

I like the old jazz because back in the old days it was all new. I like player who play off the melody and say something. Bebop is okay, but it's note my favorite era of jazz. Okay your good but now say something with the instrument instead of just blasting 1000 notes every beat and resolving it to the "gold" note.

You do a recreation of Back in Black in your own style and everyone looks at you like "What the hell are you doing to a classic". On the other hand you recreate Quincy Jones "Killer Joe" and your applauded for doing it your way/style/sound.

I just Love jazz for the very reasons mentioned and 1000 more reasons not listed.

My 2 cents. :D
 
#60
A440Hz said:
Please, if you don't think you like jazz, check out some:

* Pat Metheny
* Brad Mehldau (with or without Pat Metheny!)
* Bill Frisell
* Oliver Nelson's Stolen Moments (Nelson's sax solo on the title track is one of the best solos I can remember--it is so beautifully structured)

You may still hate it, but at least you'll hate it for stronger reasons, I guess.
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Add:
* Norman Brown
* Wayman Tisdale (bassist)
* Brian Bromberg (bassist)
* Pete White
* Chuck Loeb
* Paul Hardcastle
* Boney James
* Dan Siegel

...and the list goes on and on. They're all great Smooth Jazz artists.

Personally, I prefer Smooth Jazz more than Staight Up Jazz but I can still dig Straight Up too.
 

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