What is jazz?

[totallyfrozen]

I think Jazz separates the musicians from the players. If you "get" jazz, you're a musician; if you don't, you just play an instrument (albeit perhaps very well).

Just my inflammatory 2 cents

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

What are you going to do with a degree in jazz electric bass, if you don't get it, and don't like it?

Imagine an engineering student saying: "I've been studying engineering for five years, and I just don't get it."

I agree on that - it is bizarre!

But having been through a lot of Jazz education, I definitely detect 2 distinct approaches :

So there are educators who look at chord and scales - modes that fit with particular chord sequences - blanket scales etc. Almost like a technical exercise..?

Then there are others who say - you just need to listen to a lot of Jazz - find out what they were doing - do a lot of transcribing! Listen to something and sing a solo - sing a bass line - what can you hear? etc.

I suspect our friend you were quoting, needs more of the latter and less of the former!!

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

I think Jazz separates the musicians from the players. If you "get" jazz, you're a musician; if you don't, you just play an instrument (albeit perhaps very well).

Just my inflammatory 2 cents

I think there's something in this, although I don't agree entirely...?

I would say that only if you are a musician, can you play Jazz - if you just play an instrument, then you may think you're playing Jazz - but you're not!

 

[goodscoolwf]

One way to express feelings---with music. Whether it is alternative rock, post-rock, hip hop, contemporary classical or else.

 

[fractiouslowend]

jazz is a method of playing whatever you like without any rules or boundaries, unless you use distortion, then it's metal.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

jazz is a method of playing whatever you like without any rules or boundaries, unless you use distortion, then it's metal.

Actually - most straight ahead Jazz has plenty of rules - only "Free Jazz" has no rules - unless you take absence of rules as its rule!

 

[fractiouslowend]

Actually - most straight ahead Jazz has plenty of rules - only "Free Jazz" has no rules - unless you take absence of rules as its rule!

well, i meant it in the sense, that if you're playing a pop or blues song, then you suddenly switch to a different key or use some crazy instrumentation or go on some big solo or something, it's not pop or blues anymore

jazz and metal are really the only genres in which you can do whatever you want, and still be within that genre, although the term free jazz is probably more accurate

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Jazz tunes do switch key, but it's hardly ever random as such and there are Music Theory "rules" at play - like going round the cycle of fifths, secondary dominants etc.

 

[superbassman2000]

jazz is a method of playing whatever you like without any rules or boundaries, unless you use distortion, then it's metal.

lol jazz has plenty of rules--I see jazz players a lot like the goth kids on south park in the sense that when one of the main boys wanted to join the group. The other kid said "to be a nonconformist, you have to dress in black and listen to the same music we do"

There is still only so much that you can do in (non-free) jazz while still holding a jazz fan's interests. I would say the best definition of jazz I have read yet is that it's another style of musical self-expression. It has just as many rules as any other genre and just as free as any other genre

 

[champbassist]

Jazz tunes do switch key, but it's hardly ever random as such and there are Music Theory "rules" at play - like going round the cycle of fifths, secondary dominants etc.

This. Exactly why I said jazz always seems to serve a musical purpose.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

There is still only so much that you can do in (non-free) jazz while still holding a jazz fan's interests. I would say the best definition of jazz I have read yet is that it's another style of musical self-expression. It has just as many rules as any other genre and just as free as any other genre

Well - if you are playing bass in a symphony orchestra, you really have no freedom - you have to play exactly what the other basses are playing, even down to whether it is an upstroke or downstroke of the bow!

In Free Jazz you have complete freedom - although I agree on holding the audience's attention - that's still a huge difference in levels of freedom between two genres of music!

 

[P_Bass_Manny]

I can't get my head around playing free jazz.

It just feels like I'm trying to play something and at the same time convince the listeners that it does actually make sense.

Perhaps it's this ability that makes a great free jazz player?

 

[mellowgerman]

this

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

I can't get my head around playing free jazz.

It just feels like I'm trying to play something and at the same time convince the listeners that it does actually make sense.

Perhaps it's this ability that makes a great free jazz player?

Well - I tend to think it's rather about interacting with the other players - which is basically what all Jazz is about!

So - it's about listening to what is going on and adding to that or commenting on it etc. or making a statement that you expect will be heard..?

To me, if it's not about that interaction then it is nothing and if you can't do that, then you will never convince an audience - so as a band, your primary job is to convince yourselves that what you are doing is worthwhile and then hope that if you like it - other people will as well.

If you as a band are unsure, then you have no chance!

 

[superbassman2000]

I can't get my head around playing free jazz.

It just feels like I'm trying to play something and at the same time convince the listeners that it does actually make sense.

Perhaps it's this ability that makes a great free jazz player?

maybe this will help you--Free jazz makes no attempt to convince the listener of anything--they are just doing their thing and if anyone wants to listen, fine, and if not, whatever.

I think the free jazzers who have achieved any kind of popularity is based on luck--the right people showing up at a show

Well - if you are playing bass in a symphony orchestra, you really have no freedom - you have to play exactly what the other basses are playing, even down to whether it is an upstroke or downstroke of the bow!

In Free Jazz you have complete freedom - although I agree on holding the audience's attention - that's still a huge difference in levels of freedom between two genres of music!

I am thinking beyond what the individual song calls for--I am more thinking in terms of what the average song in any given genre allows for and what the audience can bear as far as freedom (more of a songwriting perspective). In that same classical song in your example, maybe all the basses have to do an upstroke at the same time, in the same way that the bass player in a jazz combo can't play open E whole notes with a bow all the way through giant steps, or at least from an audience's perspective, you will be just as unlistenable in both situations to both respective audiences.

I remember back in college my combo participated in a jazz competition and while my combo wasn't playing we checked out some other school combos and I checked out a cool free jazz group--at the end the judge pointed out that the drummer was holding his sticks with a fist grip--the judge said that was stupid but the guy said the song was to represent anger, and that was his way of "punching" the drum. However, the trumpet player was just playing random bebop riffs over the top of it, which the judge pointed out as liking--so even in free jazz, there are rules that you should adhere to if you wanted people to actually come to shows lol

In free jazz you can do whatever, but you aren't doing it for an audience, or you are doing it for an audience who wants to hear that, so it turns into two different situations: "Can you do it" vs. "Can you get paid to do it"

One thing I have found out in the jazz world (also with every other genre) is that you still have to stick to a lot of rules if you want to get the paying gigs

 

[superbassman2000]

as a band, your primary job is to convince yourselves that what you are doing is worthwhile and then hope that if you like it - other people will as well.

If you as a band are unsure, then you have no chance!

this is one of the best pieces of advice I have read on talkbass and it applies to every genre of music imo abstract stuff even moreso!

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I've never posted on this site before, but I did feel compelled to respond to the above quote. First of all, I did go to UNT, and I did feel that musicality could often be lacking. But don't ever make a blanket statement about a place, school of thought, or group of people. There's plenty of alumni out here in NYC that are making great music in all genres. My guess is that you'd be happy, and lucky, to work with many of them.

Agreed. I play with a UNT graduate regularly - alto player and composer Jacob Duncan, who is one of the most creative and original musicians I am lucky enough to know. Another UNT graduate I have had experience with is drummer Ari Hoenig, who I was fortunate enough to play with for three nights in a trio setting as part of Jean-Michel Pilc's swing through our area. Ari is one of the most phenomenal and creative drummers on the planet, and I'd gladly play with him any time.

Second, I don't feel that criticizing musicians in an early stage of their development really proves your point. Jazz requires a lot of discipline, and while technical ability may come quickly, musical maturity very often does not. Fresh out of music school hot shots can be really annoying, but be an adult and keep it all in perspective. Becoming proficient on your instrument with good time and a good tone is quite an accomplishment. Give credit where credit is due.

Oh, and keep your ears open - you might learn something.

Spot on. It's easier to criticize than to actually do what you are criticizing others for not doing.

 

[A440Hz]

Add:
* Norman Brown
* Wayman Tisdale (bassist)
* Brian Bromberg (bassist)
* Pete White
* Chuck Loeb
* Paul Hardcastle
* Boney James
* Dan Siegel

...and the list goes on and on. They're all great Smooth Jazz artists.

Personally, I prefer Smooth Jazz more than Staight Up Jazz but I can still dig Straight Up too.

* Wayne Krantz
* Marc Johnson
* John Scofield

I wouldn't say that I'm a big fan of smooth jazz to listen to, but I find that I like to play it. That probably says something about me.

 

[P_Bass_Manny]

this is one of the best pieces of advice I have read on talkbass and it applies to every genre of music imo abstract stuff even moreso!

+1. I think it's spot on too.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

I think Jazz separates the musicians from the players. If you "get" jazz, you're a musician; if you don't, you just play an instrument (albeit perhaps very well).

Just my inflammatory 2 cents

That would mean there were no musicians in history prior to the early 1900s. Completely flawed notion.