Yes, this tracks with what others are saying on this thread at least.
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Double Bass What is PC Doing Here? (Descending Dom7 Chords)
- Thread starter fu22ba55
- Start date
Yes, this tracks with what others are saying on this thread at least.
As you've mentioned in your comment about Ray Brown:
"...to which Ray Brown (substitute to Paul Chambers) replied sternly, with a menacing posture:
"THE RIGHT CHANGES, KID."
Another "strange" chord interpretation by a different bass player - Jimmy Garrison - of the same track.
John Coltrane and his Quartet (pianist McCoy Tyner, bassist Jimmy Garrison, and drummer Elvin Jones)
Live in Copenhagen 1962.
The bass notes in M1 (0:23 from the video) of Part B (it's very out of tune, I can be wrong): A (descending) A (ascending) D C.
M2 - (ascending) D E F F.
Go figure...
John Coltrane and his Quartet (pianist McCoy Tyner, bassist Jimmy Garrison, and drummer Elvin Jones)
Live in Copenhagen 1962.
The bass notes in M1 (0:23 from the video) of Part B (it's very out of tune, I can be wrong): A (descending) A (ascending) D C.
M2 - (ascending) D E F F.
Go figure...
Keep stretching your abilities. Make the drills fun and extra challenging.
No Hal info. I just watched his YT videos and incorporated it into my scales & walking lines. It’s like riding a bike - pick your line, visualise your turn. As you get better you see two truth ahead, etc.
I made my scales across all strings from lowest frets and up to highest frets.
Then I made my walking lines make continuous up motion through the chord changes. Then repeat highest to lowest.
Start picking a destination point/ note at a major landmark chord in the song to move forward to it. You can use chord tones, scalar tines, or chromatic tines.
This is my "play along" version (that started my whole journey on investigating this segment). I rehearse to this version a couple times per week.
I love rehearsing to it for 2 reasons:
1) It's 17 minutes long
2) The bass is barely audible, so it makes a great playalong!
I haven't investigated what Garrison is doing on this version yet.
NOTE: something is weird with the speed/tuning of this recording: I had to adjust it 36 cents (sharper) to bring up to concert pitch.
Can I write a few versions of these long lines out (at first) to get used to the traversal and motion, or should I just (only) improvise them?
I had a trio playing at the Cornhusker hotel in Lincoln,NB in 1970. John Mayall was in town for a concert with Blue Mitchell and Cleveland Eaton in his group. They sat in with us, which was an amazing experience. Cleveland Eaton playing my bass! They played "Red Clay" and afterwards I had the audacity to say to Mr. Eaton that he was playing a wrong change. He grinned at me and said " That's what I was playin', kid." One if those life lessons: You reach a certain level of whatever it is and you play whatever you want.
Whatever works for you. I’ve never written anything down.
I Started with scales - I play them to a med swing beat, staying in tempo (click or drum loop) and this just happened to keep me from getting bored.
eg.
C Major scale, start on open E string and go as high up as you can (3 octaves) and down again. Great for practising timing, feel, position shifts and forward motion.
You can play the same note twice, or add chromatic passing notes (but only at well chosen places) to hit your forward motion mark on time.
Eg 2.
try chord tones/extensions (more complex arpeggios) up/down the neck. Play same note twice or add well chosen scalar/chromatic notes but only to make it sound more musical.
Eg 3.
play over a simple chord sequence.
I maj7 | I maj 9 | ii 6 | V 7 b9 |
Too quick? play each chord for two bars (8 bar phrase) or 4 bars (16 bar phrase). Each phrase length requires a different mindset/tools.
Make it a goal to always try new things, to stretch you brain and creative ideas. If our playing live is dull and uninspiring then that’s because we practise that way.
Be spontaneous, be creative, swing hard and keep trying new things. Force yourself out of a rut and get your creative juices flowing every time you pick up your instrument. Make it fun.
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I'm in an airport waiting on a delayed flight, so I can't really hear or play anything and it might or might not help if I did. But I have a few thoughts:
1) Something that transcribing has helped me with is understanding just how much my knowledge of theory has boxed me in to some rigid ideas. Clearly the people I have chosen to transcribe we're not approaching these sessions with rules and guardrails to inform improv to the degree that I can. So...do I like what they played or don't I? What happens when I play their choices with my local guys the next time someone calls that tune? If it sounds good, then good on me for doing the work to open myself up to that and making it part of what I do now, if not, let it go. Check out other recordings if I'm still searching.
2) I asked Butch Warren once about how he came together on some of those 1 off recordings where they were playing the band leader's or each other's compositions. "Did they come in with a chart?"
"No! Well, sometimes someone had a chart, but most of the time they just played it and then we played it back to them." So the "as played by" charts are someone's thoughts about what was played, not the composer's/arranger's/bandleader's notation. It's a little misguided to try to hold the transcribed line to that standard, especially unless you are transcribing everything that was being played on that record.
3) This one's going to start a flame and I'll have to ding myself for trolling and then argue for lienancy at the HD, but these guys weren't gods. "Other worldly, on the fly composers..." Not everything they played was perfect and sometimes it wasn't good. And some...like Paul Chambers...had problems that I'm not judging them for, but it caused great musicians to sometimes have bad recordings. I've never thought of this record as a bad PC recording, but there certainly were some. If you a) can't understand what he's playing AND b) don't like how it sounds it might not be worth making yourself crazy over, especially on a standard like Blackbird. Check out (as you have done) other recordings and play what you can hear and feel instead.
1) Something that transcribing has helped me with is understanding just how much my knowledge of theory has boxed me in to some rigid ideas. Clearly the people I have chosen to transcribe we're not approaching these sessions with rules and guardrails to inform improv to the degree that I can. So...do I like what they played or don't I? What happens when I play their choices with my local guys the next time someone calls that tune? If it sounds good, then good on me for doing the work to open myself up to that and making it part of what I do now, if not, let it go. Check out other recordings if I'm still searching.
2) I asked Butch Warren once about how he came together on some of those 1 off recordings where they were playing the band leader's or each other's compositions. "Did they come in with a chart?"
"No! Well, sometimes someone had a chart, but most of the time they just played it and then we played it back to them." So the "as played by" charts are someone's thoughts about what was played, not the composer's/arranger's/bandleader's notation. It's a little misguided to try to hold the transcribed line to that standard, especially unless you are transcribing everything that was being played on that record.
3) This one's going to start a flame and I'll have to ding myself for trolling and then argue for lienancy at the HD, but these guys weren't gods. "Other worldly, on the fly composers..." Not everything they played was perfect and sometimes it wasn't good. And some...like Paul Chambers...had problems that I'm not judging them for, but it caused great musicians to sometimes have bad recordings. I've never thought of this record as a bad PC recording, but there certainly were some. If you a) can't understand what he's playing AND b) don't like how it sounds it might not be worth making yourself crazy over, especially on a standard like Blackbird. Check out (as you have done) other recordings and play what you can hear and feel instead.
Yes. Agree wholeheartedly.This is often lost in the current world of Jazz History Deification.
It's OK to not "like" ANYBODY's performances, for any reason whatsoever, (BUT there may be a price to pay, esp. on TB/DB!)
Finally, PC was perhaps the last of the "play by ear" generation of bassists - Ron Carter being perhaps the first of the "schooled" generation (able to read music and a student of Music Theory), and also a very gifted musician - this enabled RC to participate in more complex harmonic forms - (i.e. - HH's Dolphin Dance. I would be shocked to learn that the recording of Herbie's DD was learned "by ear", not read off of a chart.) (If anyone has any solid evidence to support or contradict this I would be very interested.)
Bassists today (and from the mid 60's and on), were expected to process (read), understand (hear), and function (play) more complex harmonic and formal structures as a starting point for a previously "aural" (only) art form.
IMFO, of course, as always.
Thanks, Troy.
ffs, it's a simple substitution. This band worked all the time. A-7 and D7 are closely related chords. He is making certain things more opened to high light the big cadences of the song. It's not rocket science. This was a band where even the drummer was a killer pianist. These are the kind of changes they made all the time on the fly. The real question is, what are the changes the real live musicians you are playing this song with playing?
I agree 100% these men were not gods -- but I cannot think of one recording where P.C. doesn't sound good. What records specifically are you thinking of? To play jazz at a high level in NYC now is very very competitive. To do it in the 50's, was crazy cut throat.
I agree 100% these men were not gods -- but I cannot think of one recording where P.C. doesn't sound good. What records specifically are you thinking of? To play jazz at a high level in NYC now is very very competitive. To do it in the 50's, was crazy cut throat.
PC was classically trained. I am sure he could read music just fine, and there is no reason to think he didn't understand music theory. (Also, I don't know for sure but I imagine PC had lead sheets for the blue note sessions he led. Something like the Whims of Chambers original tracks seems like they would have had lead sheets in the session.) This kind of improvised/play-by-ear vs schooled musician talk is a false dichotomy.
This is not the best example of PC's best playing - or, maybe it is the best example of PC's NOT best playing.(!)
He is stumbling on the last few measures of the Bridge (at 3:00, 4:37, 5:25.) Kind of a tricky spot, harmonically speaking, to get back to set up Bb major from Dmajor.
He's missing Red Garland's Gb7 (at 5:48) near the end of the last A.
He totally botched Red's walkdown after the sax cadenza (at 6:00) - Red is playing Ebmin7/Dbmaj7/B7/Bbmaj7, but PC plays "Eb/ D/ C/ Bb". Ouch. (When in doubt, Lay Out.)
IMFO, of course, as always.
Thanks for your interest.
Yes. Schooled musicians still "improvised" and "played-by-ear", but may have had/have more tools in their toolboxes that enrich their improvising and playing-by-ear.
I did not set up any "dichotomy".
IMFO, of course.
Thanks for your interest, crd.
Are you going to be ready if:
1.) Your band plays the following chord progression:
From here:
Harmonic analysis of Bye Bye Blackbird
2.) Your band plays the following chord progression in Part B:
https://pyzikmusic.weebly.com/uploads/1/6/0/9/16092340/byebyeblackbird.pdf
3.) Your band uses the following chord progression:
Bye Bye Blackbird - Chord Melody Jazz Guitar Lesson
I've got a quick change in Denver, so I can't listen to verify, but from memory, here's an example.
Not tryin to wee in anyone's Cheerios, just trying to help the OP out. PC was a great player and made some amazing records, but they were human and there were sometimes issues with being human and great.
Attachments
There's always David Hazeltine's reharmonized version from the Hal Leonard "Enhanced Chords Edition"
(other changes blurred out to respect Mr. Hazeltine's copyright)
Don,
I've listened carefully what the bass is playing on that last Bbmaj7.
I would tend to speculate (that spot is, kind of nebulous) the bass jumps from C directly to F and follows up with his wide "vibrato" of G-F-G-F...
It's more like, Bbmaj9(add #11)/F
