Double Bass What is PC Doing Here? (Descending Dom7 Chords)

[fu22ba55]

Yeah, the measure / bar numbers are not in reference to the performance. The transcription software just has bar numbers on by default.

Each line is an island, taken out of context of it's recording.

(which is 90% of the problem. No context).

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Yeah, the measure / bar numbers are not in reference to the performance. The transcription software just has bar numbers on by default.

Each line is an island, taken out of context of it's recording.

(which is 90% of the problem. No context).

I hear more of B natural than C in M2 from your chart.

The piano plays some inverted Cmin(add9) in M1 from your chart

 

[fu22ba55]

I hear more of B natural than C in M2 from your chart.

The piano plays some inverted Cmin(add9) in M1 from your chart

Hearing / deciphering the piano chords would help 110%, but my ears aren't keen enough to pick them out. (I've never been a keys player, so I don't have acute hearing for voicings, etc...)

You may very well be right about the B Natural.

Here's the clip twice: once with the horn EQed out and the bass boosted, And the same again, transposed an octave up.

Definitely sounds closer to B Natural an octave higher. Me hearing Bb may have been editorializing too much:

Bar Two with EQ

Bar Two with EQ and Pitch Shift (octave)

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Hearing / deciphering the piano chords would help 110%, but my ears aren't keen enough to pick them out. (I've never been a keys player, so I don't have acute hearing for voicings, etc...)

You may very well be right about the B Natural.

Here's the clip twice: once with the horn EQed out and the bass boosted, And the same again, transposed an octave up.

Definitely sounds closer to B Natural an octave higher. Me hearing Bb may have been editorializing too much:

Bar Two with EQ

Bar Two with EQ and Pitch Shift (octave)

In your comment you have expressed your opinion that Paul Chambers is interpreting three bars as Amin7(b5).
PC plays E natural in M2 on Beat1, and in M3 on Beat3.
Amin7(b5) has A - C - Eb(!) - G

 

[fu22ba55]

In your comment you have expressed your opinion that Paul Chambers is interpreting three bars as Amin7(b5).
PC plays E natural in M2 on Beat1, and in M3 on Beat3.
Amin7(b5) has A - C - Eb(!) - G

I didn't mean to imply any confidence in that theory: the changes suggest Aø7, and I hear some A-minor-ish tonality, so I was looking for Aø7, but yeah we talked about the E natural on page one of the thread.

It's not my opinon that he's playing Aø7, it's my opinon that I don't know what the heck he's playing... hence the thread!

 

[turf3]

Well, here we come back to what I said earlier: it's my belief that when you have trouble assigning specific harmonic functions to individual notes, the player has probably imagined a line that he expects will sound good, and he's played that, based on how he expects it will sound rather than on an instantaneous harmonic analysis. Our after the fact analysis probably needs sometimes to simply say "ambiguous" at certain points.

I have read somewhere that if PC wanted to play four notes but there was only space to fit three, he'd play microtonal notes to make the rhythm come out like he wanted. So for example if you want to go from A to Db in a straight line (A-Bb-B-C-Db) , but you want to use 6 notes to get there instead of five, so you play A, Bb-, B-, B+, C+, Db. I've not listened enough to his recordings with enough attention to actually notice this happening, but if it ever did it would be another example of how jazz players can warp things a bit to make them come out the way they want.

 

[fu22ba55]

he'd play microtonal notes to make the rhythm come out like he wanted.

"Yeah, that's what I'M doing, ON PURPOSE, all the time"

 

[Groove Doctor]

Our after the fact analysis probably needs sometimes to simply say "ambiguous" at certain points.

QFT. Exactly.

The obvious sections to transcribe are what made it into the RB. These ambiguous sections were skipped for simplicity’s & clarity’s sake.

That’s what I both love and hate about the RB, as it both 1. lets the majority enter into a song, but 2. stops many from ever exploring further… like we are doing now!!

Why You Shouldn't Be a Real Book Player • Jazzadvice

Remember- Before it was the Real Book it was the Fake Book… a crutch for gigs to help you fake your way through a song you haven’t heard of, or haven’t learned, transcribed or memorised yourself.

Just like audio and photo digital compression, you lose the subtle nuances and end up with a simplified (watered-down) version, or pixelated version, of the original.

 

[fu22ba55]

You lose the subtle nuances and end up with a simplified (watered-down) version, or pixelated version, of the original.

I heard Benny Green tell a story (on stage) about the first time he met Ray Brown:

Green enjoyed Brown's set, but heard some unfamiliar changes over a particular section of a tune, and couldn't decihper them. He mustered up the courage to approach Ray after the set, and thought he would be cool by "talking shop" and asked him:

"Mr Brown, what changes were you playing during [such-and-such] section of [such-and-such] tune?"

to which Ray Brown replied sternly, with a menacing posture:

"THE RIGHT CHANGES, KID."

 

[Whousedtoplay]

it's my opinon that I don't know what the heck he's playing... hence the thread!

Here is what I (only!) think.

In all those "questioned" measures/bars, the bass tends to highlight Amin7, not Amin7b5.
If it was I (me) playing that note E, some smart people from TalkBass would tell me,
"Hey, it's Amin7b5 not just "pure" Amin7."
And I would say, "Sorry, I have some mental block," but...
It's Paul Chambers(!); therefore, PC is playing "what sounds GOOD!"

And that written chord Eb9 looks like some extraterrestrial "What-is-that" with Paul Chambers' transcription.

 

[Wasnex]

Here is what I (only!) think.

In all those "questioned" measures/bars, the bass tends to highlight Amin7, not Amin7b5.
If it was me playing that note E, some smart people from TalkBass would tell me,
"Hey, it's Amin7b5 not just "pure" Amin7."
And I would say, "Sorry, I have some mental block," but...
It's Paul Chambers(!); therefore, PC is playing "what sounds GOOD!"

And that written chord Eb9 looks like some extraterrestrial "What-is-that" with Paul Chambers' transcription.

View attachment 4697378

The thing about playing by ear is the musicians don't always play what is on the page. If you were to listen to what was played on a different time through the form, the bass may have outlined an Eb9 in bar 3...or done something else.

I usually stick pretty close to the page, because I am not a real jazzer and don't have the knowledge or skills to veer too far off course. Yes I am pretty much a Real Book hack, but the vast majority of my jazz trio gigs tended to be for background music (cocktail hour, dinner music, etc). I can throw in tritone subs and alter some of the extensions as I play though.

I remember years ago trying to study a book; I believe it was Rufus Reid, Evolving Bassist. I noted a bunch of disparities between Rufus's bass line and the chords--way more frequent and severe variation than this example. However, the bass line sounded great.

IMHO the book was not useful without a guide to help understand that Rufus was playing off the page, and it's likely the other rhythm players were playing off the page as well. I asked some of my superiors in the organization, but they didn't have a clue what was going on. So in a way the chord changes were not a very helpful guide and I found the transcriptions in book to be more confusing than useful.

IMHO it would be far more useful in a learning environment to show the written chords, the actual chords that were played, and the bass line that was played. It's likely there will be some degree of disagreement between all three.

With study and practice you learn to hear certain substitutions and do them without thinking. IMHO for most people it's totally instinctual, although I believe there are those rare few who actually tend to think by number pretty much all the time. For them, substitutions become recognizable patterns/formulas, that can be applied at will. I believe the formulas frequently employ non-functional harmony, and there are a wide variety of systems that can be used. Each system has it's own characteristic sound.

Each of the systems I am inferring has it's on rules and they are specifically rules for how to break diatonic/functional harmony. A player with really deep knowledge may master several of these systems and be able to move from one system to another at will. However, I think it is important to understand that there is no universal theory of music that ties all of the systems together.

 

[fu22ba55]

Here is what I (only!) think.

So you're saying :
|Am7 |E9 |Am7 |D7b9 | (with the exception of the first bar, which you left as F9)

@Fat bob said 3,6,3,6 in post #6 (page one of this thread) which gives us:

|Am7 |D(something) |Am7 |D7b9 | (chord qualities TDB)

Both of which seem more plausible than F9, E9, Eb9, D7b9

IMHO it would be far more useful in a learning environment to show the written chords, the actual chords that were played, and the bass line that was played.

Yeah that's basically what this exercise is about (for me). The "|F9 |E9 |Eb9 |D7b9 |" are only above PC's line (on this transcription) because that's what I had laid out as the changes on the previous page for Ray Brown's lines.

Nowhere (other than my craptastic PDF) does this PC line exist in a published fakebook with these changes. It would have been more clear had I left the chord symbols off (except for the last bar) so we could write in our own changes above the line.

And as many have said: PC could have been thinking of some enharmonic equivalent, or something modal, or just using his ears and skill. I find a ton of his lines being more "scalar" and sneakily floating above the changes (in other transcriptions) rather than dutifully outlining chord tones in ever bar (like my awkward, unconnected lines).

 

[Groove Doctor]

And as many have said: PC could have been thinking of some enharmonic equivalent, or something modal, or just using his ears and skill. I find a ton of his lines being more "scalar" and sneakily floating above the changes (in other transcriptions) rather than dutifully outlining chord tones in ever bar (like my awkward, unconnected lines).

I find myself weaving between:
1) PC’s scalar-style arc-of-notes,
2) Ray Brown’s “neon sign”-style strong root plus carefully chosen chord tones, and
3) Hal Galper’s Forward Motion leading your ear to the next chord/major landmark.

I find this infinitely more interesting to listen to and easier for soloists to feel a strong sense of direction/arrival, tension/release, compression/expansion, teasing/pleasing the ear. A great bass line stirs up something emotionally, and not just cerebrally. YMMV.

 

[fu22ba55]

I find myself weaving between:
1) PC’s scalar-style arc-of-notes,
2) Ray Brown’s “neon sign”-style strong root plus carefully chosen chord tones, and
3) Hal Galper’s Forward Motion leading your ear to the next chord/major landmark.

Currently, I think I'm mostly #2, but more chaotically chosen chord tones (e.g. I rely on the root too much)
I'm getting more into #1. Experimenting more and stretching out... painting myself into corners and seeing if I can find a way out, with mixed results.

Do you have any specific books or texts you'd recommend on Hal Galper's "Forward Motion?" I've seen a ton of his (amazing) YouTube videos, but didn't know if there was a specific Galper text/method book you're referencing.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

with the exception of the first bar, which you left as F9

No, the first chord is also NOT F9.
It's just Paul Chambers does not clearly indicates whether it's Amin7 or Amin7b5.
It's NOT F9 chord for Paul.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Both of which seem more plausible than F9, E9, Eb9, D7b9

Here is a live recording of "Bye Bye Black Bird" by Miles Davis and John Coltrane at Newport in 1958.
Part B around 0:39.
WHAT Amin7?
M1 - It's "pure" F chord indication in the bass - F A D C - while the piano player says, "It's F9."
Next.
M2 - Notes in the bass - B B E B (as "possible" E9)
M3 - Bass - Bb F Bb Bb... (as 'possible" Eb9)

Who's on the bass?
Paul Chambers or Sam Jones?

 

[Febs]

No, the first chord is also NOT F9.
It's just Paul Chambers does not clearly indicates whether it's Amin7 or Amin7b5.
It's NOT F9 chord for Paul.

It seems pretty clear to me in every example that he's playing Am7, and not Am7(b5). In example 1, he outlines an Am chord on the strong beats (A C E C A E) of those three measures. In example 2, he's playing more chromatically in the first two measures but still pretty clearly Am, and then he outlines an inversion of an Am7 arpeggio in measure three.

If I were looking at these lines without the bias of the fake book changes written in, I'd say examples 1 and 2 were Am7 | % | % | D7, and examples 3-5 were Am7 | D7 | Am7 | D7.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

he's playing Am7, and not Am7(b5).

Yes. Paul Chambers sees that section as Amin7 while the piano player solidly incorporates Eb from Amin7b5.
My speculation only.
1. ) It was some "mental block."
2.) "Amin7 and Amin7b5 are, almost, interchangeably(?), per Paul Chambers.

 

[fu22ba55]

Here is a live recording of "Bye Bye Black Bird" by Miles Davis and John Coltrane at Newport in 1958.

I don't know who's playing on this version, and I only listened to the first two B sections, but in THIS version the bass player is playing the garden-variety |F9 |E9 |Eb9 |D7b9 (like the Ray Brown and Duvivier versions).

 

[fu22ba55]

2.) "Amin7 and Amin7b5 are, almost, interchangeably(?), per Paul Chambers.

I've run into this before with PC on other tunes. There must be some "hip" reason why he's not playing the b5 (that escapes me).