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What is so difficult with Standard Notation?

#21
Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Eh? I mean - this is a very strange statement altogether - but for a start - don't we have keyboard players in these genres? A huge proportion of pop/rock/blues songs have been written by somebody sitting down at a piano - virtually all chart music these days is written by keyboard players/programmers - music programing is based entirely on keyboard input even if you don't play the keyboard in "real-time". But anyway -all pop music can be quite adequately expressed in music notation.
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yep, there are plenty of keyboard players in these genres- I wasn't denying that at all- it's just that the note system and the subsequent keyboard arrangement seems so illogical.

for example- transpose a melody on the keyboard up or down by a semitone and the pattern of keys completely changes, yet on bass or guitar the pattern remains the same (assuming no open strings used).

you've got 12 semitones in the western scale, why not six lettered notes, with a sharp available for each?
why seven lettered notes with no sharp available for B or E? (okay, they exist but B#= C and E#=F)

what's accepted due to tradition seems to be seriously flawed to me.

This is stunning, really. I'm in awe of this post - the ignorance posted above as fact.....
unbelieveable.
okay Pacman, call me ignorant if you like- just point out whatever mistakes I've made and (especially) tell me why there's a semitone between E and F and between B and C, whereas all the other notes have 2, as I've never got a convincing explanation from any "schooled" musician- of which I know quite a few, including some who've taught double bass, cello, violin and piano.

okay, all you seasoned notation readers are probably LYAO at this- maybe I've been looking at all the wrong books for reading music.....
 
#22
mock said: okay Pacman, call me ignorant if you like- just point out whatever mistakes I've made and (especially) tell me why there's a semitone between E and F and between B and C, whereas all the other notes have 2, as I've never got a convincing explanation from any "schooled" musician- of which I know quite a few, including some who've taught double bass, cello, violin and piano


regardless of what exlanation you'd except, this holds true whether you read NOTATION or TAB.

so, i don't understand how this is an argument against notation.

fred "standard notation kinda guy" hodshon
 
#23
Western music has its roots in ancient greek music, which is based on tetrachords (4 notes), which can be diatonic, chromatic or enharmonic (intervals smaller than a semitone).
Today we usually use the octave as a frame, which can be seen as one tetrachord after another, with diatonic or chromatic content.

A Major scale has two identical tetrachords with 2 wholetones and a semitone.
 
#24
Yeah,I dont understand why everyone thinks notation is s hard?ITS SO EASY!The only thing thats hard for me is sight reading,like looking at a sheet of music and saying the notes as soon as i look at them.it takes me like 5 seconds to figure out a note.
 
#26
tab may be easier for some things.

but, to me its like paint by numbers.

those "serious" about music, will bite the bullet and learn standard notation.

its the accepted universal written music language.

if you are a TAB-HEAD, be honest about what level you want to stay at musically.

nothing wrong with that at all...but, TAB as a serious form of communication or a replacement for SN, is just a masquerade.

fred "bracing himself for the heat!!!" hodshon
 
#28
I really wanna see an answer to The Mock Turtle Regulator's questions about the origins of certain elemenents in notation.

What I like about Standard notation, is that it allows you to use music theory while writing and playing. Music theory is an excellent guideline for writing songs and music. It is like the darwinism of composition; it is what was found to sound good to the ear through trial&error over a long period of time
 
#30
Originally posted by fhodshon
regardless of what exlanation you'd except, this holds true whether you read NOTATION or TAB.

so, i don't understand how this is an argument against notation.

fred "standard notation kinda guy" hodshon
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if you read my post on the first page, you'd have seen I said I don't like tab either.
so I'm not arguing in favour of tab.
then again, the note naming system (which is flawed IMHO) is ignored in tab, as fret numbers are used instead.

posted by JMX
A Major scale has two identical tetrachords with 2 wholetones and a semitone.
fine- so keyboard players have it easy in certain keys where they can play a scale with only white keys or black keys.
but change the key by a semitone, and it all falls apart- the pattern of keys changes completely.

my argument - we have 12 semitones- we should have 6 note letters, with sharps available on every one.

I suspect the note system was devised to simplify playing in certain keys, and the piano keyboard designed to accomodate it.
music notation has key signatures to cover up the flaws in this system when other keys are used.

and as a result everyone is expected to put up with an unnecessarily complicated system.

an interesting aside- someone called Brendan (I'm not sure if that's the Brendan who's a moderator here) emailed me last week asking me if I had a transcription of the MTR bass solo piece I did that's on the Talkbass Station- presumably meaning a tab of it.

regardless of whether the piece in question is any good or not, I think it's best to learn things by ear.

BTW I'm very disappointed by Pacman's, being a moderator, condescending response to my first post.
 
#31
I'm not really sure if your proposed system would work better, I'm too tired to think it through right now (3:10 AM right now).

Yes, standard notation may be more complicated than necessary and yes, it may appear not "logical" at times, but that's because it evolved and was passed on over generations and centuries.

An example:
German notation is not a b c d e f g but a h c d e f g.

You wanna know why?
Because some monk in the middle ages with sloppy handwriting wrote copies of notes and those were again copied and the b was copied as h. And this got spread in all german-speaking parts of Europe.
To matters worse, b flat is still b flat.

But the important thing is, standard notation works and, like the name says, it is a <b>standard</b>.

Take a look at languages, e.g. English, totally illogical too. You speak a word differently than it's written, you have irregular verbs, etc.
So why don't you use Esperanto, which is a artificial language that was designed to be very logical?

Because it would require way too much effort to change to an entirely new language. You'd have to change and eventually redo everything.
The advantages won't really justify that much effort.
 
#32
mock:

i read your first post in this thread.

the part about a system with no key signatures seems like a step backwards.

to me at least.

with no hey sigs, how would you know the tonal center upon first glance.

you would have to do some pretty hefty analysis way into the piece to determine the harmonic flavor.

a waste of time and energy in my opinion.

f
 
#34
the key could just be simply written by the stave instead ;)

by "no key signatures" I mean the system of sharps and flats written in on the left by the clef.
THAT seems like a waste of time and energy in my opinion, where each note on a line gets affected by a key signature sharp or flat.
and then the confusion of notes written as "natural", cancelling the key signature sharp or flat.

simply writing, for example, "F#" by the clef on the left- a lot easier, surely?
why do we have to go to all the trouble of learning how many sharps or flats are in the key signature of each of the 12 keys, when it could just be written in?


my suggested system would be the 12 semitones represented by the letters A to F, with sharps available on each.
the key would be written by the clef as a simple letter and sharp or flat.

this would mean the nice neat (B)EADG(CF) and EADGBE string names on basses and guitars would get messed up, and there'd be no G string jokes any more, but I can live with that:D

the piano keyboard would have a black key between every white key- so it would be difficult to find where you are on the keyboard, but you could always have markers as on a guitar neck;)

laugh at this idea all you like, but please point out what problems there'd be with it.

posted by JMX
But the important thing is, standard notation works and, like the name says, it is a standard.

well, the internal combustion engine is less than 25% efficient and the VHS video recorder is incredibly overcomplicated and difficult to maintain,
but they work and they're standards- they should be retired though, and VHS is on the way out.
I feel the same way about standard notation.

Take a look at languages, e.g. English, totally illogical too. You speak a word differently than it's written, you have irregular verbs, etc.
So why don't you use Esperanto, which is a artificial language that was designed to be very logical?

Because it would require way too much effort to change to an entirely new language. You'd have to change and eventually redo everything.
The advantages won't really justify that much effort.

good point about English- it's got an incredible number of illogicalities in it- it's only from sheer indoctrination from an early age that you can really cope with all its idiosyncracies.

yep, to change the music note nomenclature and notation system would be hugely disruptive.

I'm glad I've finally managed to get some acknowledgement that the system is unnecessarily complicated- it seems that some people consider criticism of it as sacrilege.
 
#35
What kinda struck me as a not so great idea is having a note as the key... that would make reading much harder. Key signatures make it easier to write and read music. More memorization right there. With the sharps and flats written, it makes it easier to read it. I really don't like lots of accidentals all over the staff. It's slow to read. The current method works very well.



As JMX said, it would be too much of a hassle to change the system; it just wouldn't work out. I don't think everyone wants to roll out all their expensive pianos to buy new ones. You said the main problemyourself about finding out where you are playing.
 
#36
without the B/C and E/F relationship in C (as a base key) we'd lose the Major Scale "layout" that applies accross all keys.

for example, in C the half steps are between E and F & B and C.

in other words, between the 3rd and 4th & 7th and 8th scale steps.

in G Major, the half steps are still between the 3rd and 4th & 7th and 8th scale steps. The F is adjusted to F# to maintain the MAJOR layout.

and so on around the cycle.

i think its perfect.

very convenient.

its been around for a few hundred years now, and with all the musical brains that have come along with other methods (most notably the SERIALISTS who had a penchant for the 12tone scale) this standard approach has held up.

just a thought.

fred
 
#37
fhodshon laid it out perfectly. it's about resolution. the 3rd and the 7th.

my post about ignorance stands. it shows that you obviously have not thought about functional (e.g. in rock and pop) harmony.

additionally, I have to say this: it's really easy to talk about what should be, rather that accept and learn to excell in what [i[is[/i]. I find this causes certain people undue heartache. standard is the standard for a reason.

I challenge you this: write out an entire piece of music, let's say 'take me out to the ballgame' (a very popular tune, when it was new). write it out in the key of F# without a key signature. now write it out in F# with a key signature. if you've done this, you know why we use them.

ignorance comes from not actually doing something.
 
#38
Originally posted by Pacman
fhodshon laid it out perfectly. it's about resolution. the 3rd and the 7th.

my post about ignorance stands. it shows that you obviously have not thought about functional (e.g. in rock and pop) harmony.

on a bass fretboard, harmony intervals such as thirds and sevenths remain the same (ie. the interval is played as the same shape) no matter what key you transpose them to- the same cannot be said for the keyboard (with keys arranged as they are to accomodate the accepted note nomenclature) - hence
I can argue that the system is flawed.


additionally, I have to say this: it's really easy to talk about what should be, rather that accept and learn to excell in what [i[is[/i]. I find this causes certain people undue heartache. standard is the standard for a reason.


I can argue that it's real easy to accept what's forced on you by tradition, and not have the guts to question it, and ,more importantly also have the imagination to suggest an alternative system, especially when faced with a reaction such as that presented by you- of ridicule.


I challenge you this: write out an entire piece of music, let's say 'take me out to the ballgame' (a very popular tune, when it was new). write it out in the key of F# without a key signature. now write it out in F# with a key signature. if you've done this, you know why we use them.
Click to expand...

this assumes I'd be using the conventional 7 letter system.
with a 6 letter system as I'd suggested, all I'd have to do is write out a few more sharps and flats- not a huge extra task.
key signatures IMHO only work/are of noticeable benefit with the flawed standard 7 letter system.
 
#39
hey, i'm all for questioning the system.

some of my favorite music is written without a stave system at all.

edgar varese, john cage, karl schtockausen (sp?).

so, go for it.

BUT, all of these composers had an understanding of the "accepted" system to gain their foothold.

by not showing a respect of the "standard" or even a basic understanding of it, lessens credibility.

nothing wrong with learning the norm and then deviating from it.

or discarding it all together.

make it work and show us.

i'll listen to anything.

fred
 
#40
Originally posted by The Mock Turtle Regulator

on a bass fretboard, harmony intervals such as thirds and sevenths remain the same (ie. the interval is played as the same shape) no matter what key you transpose them to- the same cannot be said for the keyboard (with keys arranged as they are to accomodate the accepted note nomenclature) - hence
I can argue that the system is flawed.


Yes, and others could argue that they suspect you're sniffing glue. Do you play the piano? I'm guessing not...because if you did, you'd KNOW why the keyboard is laid out as it is, and you'd also know why the above statement is patently absurd. If you can play at all, you notice that the thirds and sevenths remain EXACTLY the same in each key. The black keys, configured exactly as they are, make the instrument easier to play, not harder.

I can argue that it's real easy to accept what's forced on you by tradition, and not have the guts to question it, and ,more importantly also have the imagination to suggest an alternative system, especially when faced with a reaction such as that presented by you- of ridicule.


Yes, you can. I could also argue that it would be easy to theorize an alternative system for breathing- since breathing through the mouth and nose is so damned inefficient - and then refer to those who don't care to try it "gutless" and "old school". :rolleyes:

this assumes I'd be using the conventional 7 letter system.
with a 6 letter system as I'd suggested, all I'd have to do is write out a few more sharps and flats- not a huge extra task.
key signatures IMHO only work/are of noticeable benefit with the flawed standard 7 letter system.
Click to expand...

Right. So you'd prefer a system that uses 7 note scales, but only 6 note names? Which scale degree doesn't get its own name?
 

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