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What is so difficult with Standard Notation?

#62
Originally posted by The Mock Turtle Regulator
okay, fhodshon, I'll take you up on that, but bear with me, this may take a while.

I'm going to start by keeping the note A and working from there, using a bass and working out how intervals can be referred to.
I intend at some point to modify a keyboard using a black key between every white key throughout.

I'm fully aware the chances are it'll all fail horribly and I'll fall flat on my face sheepishly acknowledging the validity of the accepted system- but hey, I can take that;)
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Well - I see you have ignored my point completely! I basically don't care what you do with the letters as these are different in German or Russian anyway - but to me the thing you cannot replace is the system of dots/staves which is what I understand by the term "standard notation" anyway!! :rolleyes:
 
#63
Originally posted by The Mock Turtle Regulator


yes, that's exactly the point I hoped people would see I was making when I mentioned language-

the "Queen's English" is full of many unnecessary quirks that American English has eliminated - need I mention the spelling of "color"? as an example- I'm all for it- there's no need for the U in the strict English spelling of colour.

I've been forced to learn all these quirks, and I see people mispelling things in England all the time- it's seriously flawed- I don't blame people for mispelling words/ making grammatical mistakes at all.

I learned French, Latin and (ancient)Greek at school (I got A Grades in all of them if you're wondering) and saw countless unnecessary complications in all of them-
the ancient Greek alphabet for a start- 2 letters for O- omicron and omega, plus different ways of writing E (epsilon) depending on the context of its use- all unnecessary.

back to music, all the objections to an alternative system as I've suggested to me seem to be akin to objecting to the elimination of petrol-driven cars saying "I won't be able to get free gifts on the points I've earned buying petrol if petrol-driven cars are eliminated".

- all the patterns seasoned readers will miss are only due to the fact that they're used to them.
I re-state a previous point- the keyboard only works as it's based around the known note system.


basically, my whole objection to this system stems from the way I view music, and the reason I choose to play it- to me it epitomises freedom and free self-expression, and this system imposes unnecessary impedance.
I see music as an escape from forced indoctrination.

believe me, I've tried to learn to read music, and to play keyboards, but I could never overlook the inherent overcomplications without questioning why it should be like this.
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My point was that the current system (Whether "Queens English" or Standard Notation) Works well enough for it to be accessable to all and convey the message that it is designed to pass. By all means it is not the be all and end all of how to write, and it does the job well enough, which means that to change it would require a lot of effort by all concerned and thus not actually be worthwhile.

However, that is not to say that you cannot devise your own method of notating music (even if you cannot get a piano made Black Key- White Key- Black key etc.) but what I will say is that understanding comprehensively the existing system, both the musical and physical theory of it, will provide you with a much better place to start.

and by all means once you have devised your own music notation system, I'm sure everyone here will be willing to offer constructive criticism to try and help you perfect it. However, I cannot account for them trying to champion it to replace the existing Standard Notation.;)

well adios
 
#64
I just don't get all of this!!! I know that my problem with standard notation just comes from the fact that I've been too damned lazy to learn it properly!!!!

One of these days I'll make the time to do it - 'cos I want to learn what it is.

I think that anyone who doesn't want to learn something for what it is is OK - but perhaps just being a bit lazy. Standard notation isn't right so I think it should be changed, that's like French doesn't make any sense to me, I'll re-invent it and tell all the French people how they should do their language!!! Just my 2 cents worth!!!!

If you don't like something don't do it - that's fine!! What's so difficult with standard notation, well I think it's because people are too lazy to learn it properly - I'm one of them. I like to see results quickly, I'm impatient - if I know the song, TAB has meplaying it in minutes - takes longer with standard notation!!!!

I also think the point about Queen's English and American English was interesting. So dropping the u in some words is OK - fine. I think that it's laziness, leasrn the words as they are, makes communicating easier - you wouldn't drop letters in French or GErman unnecissarily. Also some of the words have just been changed completely - look at Aluminium, or soldering. They're different, just 'cos!

Just my humble opinion!
 
#65
Ok, I'm going to answer the original question in my own point of view.

It will take me several seconds to figure out what each note is on the staff. Then determining where on the fret board to play that note is what stumps me. I know where my notes are, but which one do I play? I can easily tell the differencew between 1/8 notes, 1/4 notes, half notes, and whole notes. I know the difference between rests. I know the time beats.

What I'm having trouble figuring out is Keys.

I'm also having difficulty learning chords and scales.

Although playing bass is a hobby, not a career, I do want to be the best bassist I can be. Unfortunetly it has to take a back seat to my career, limiting the time I have to practice.



Now, for when I write music, since I don't have a firm grasp of writing in notation, I'll use tabs. If I play a line I really like, I'll play it over and over, make a few changes/ adjustments, then write it out in Tab.

I know tabs kinda suck. I know there is a lot more notation will tell you.

One of the arguments against TAB is note length. I see many people say "tab will not tell you note length." I disagree. Well, at least in the way I write tabs. No dashes = 16th, 1 dash = 8th, 2 dashes = 4th, 3 dashes = half, and 4 dashes = whole note. I don't know if this is a universal way to write tabs (and it probably isn't), but thats how i do it. Yes, standard tells you a whole lot more than tabs, I just wish it was a little easier to understand.
 
#66
Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald


I see them in every chart I play, and I know of their existence inside the head of everyone who plays an instrument at anything higher than a beginner level, or who reads music.

I see your point in the context of this particular discussion, but from the standpoint of music education and jazz in particular, I find FAUX TURTLE OVERLORD's argument particularly destructive. There is an intuitive logic to the idea of each scale tone having its own name which I am having trouble believing that anyone would refute. But, as always, that's just my opinion.
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I do agree with you Chris, in that of course it is imporant that each note can be identified with a name - but I don't think it matters what that name actually is - as long as everybody agrees on it!

So Dimitri Shostakovich named these differently and was famous for including his "signature" DCSH motif in his compositions which is based on different letters as note names - and so did Beethoven and just about every German/Russian composer!

So - it's about communication - like everybody in business has to have MS software so they can send files to their contacts in a format that they can read - there is nothing intrisically better about MS software - it's just that everybody's got it! So - if I want to send a graph or spreadsheet to somebody in another part of the country a part of my job then I know I have to use MS software!

I still think that "standard notation" = dots/staves though ! ;) But I can see your point that the note names are "implicit" in the system.
 
#67
Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


Well - I see you have ignored my point completely! I basically don't care what you do with the letters as these are different in German or Russian anyway - but to me the thing you cannot replace is the system of dots/staves which is what I understand by the term "standard notation" anyway!! :rolleyes:
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yes, I did ignore your point (and why did you quote my reply to fhodshon?), as the notation system I propose will use the dots/stave system, only using 6 letters instead.

it's the 7 letter system I'm opposed to.
all the quirks I see seem to stem from this illogical system.
the argument that it allows a note letter for each scale tone only applies to certain keys. (C and G?)

intervals can keep the same names under a 6letter system- as I understand they derive their names from the step in the scale they are at, so the letter change won't alter that.

I am considering devising a new system of key signatures for the 6 letter system if it's necessary to cut down on writing in sharps and flats.


the German system doesn't really seem any different- still 7 letters in effect, only replacing B natural with H (8 including the Bflat judging from what JMX posted).




so far I've worked out what the notes for the first 12 frets will be on my bass using 6 letters-
open strings EADG become known as D#,A,C#,F
a low B remains known as B.


on another note, I've also been experimenting with eliminating another illogicallity that's always irked me-
the accepted guitar tuning- ie. fourths up to G, then a major third to B and a fourth again to high E.

in Frank Zappa bassist Scott Thunes' interview in Bass Player he said he found this irksome too, adding to his reasons for choosing bass as his "voice".
I've retuned the top 2 strings on my acoustic guitar to keep the system of fourths accross all (EADGCF, in the existing nomenclature;))- I read Stanley Jordan does this on his guitars to keep chord shapes/ note runs the same all over the neck.
it works well, for me anyway. better than before, for sure- I've only been playing guitar (and very rarely) for 2 years now. I've been playing bass for ten years.


I find it ironic that many of the people who object to a change in the letters system are those who use multi-string basses, and have said they use the B string above the 4th fret to avoid using open strings, which break up the regularity of patterns accross the neck.



re. the English language, I've been pondering whether it's really necessary to have the spellings of your, you're, their, there, they're, its, it's etc.- they all have different meanings, sure, but we pronounce them exactly the same, and we understand their intended meanings when they are spoken- why not just spell them in one form as spoken? eg. "there"

I see people making mistakes in this all the time- unnecessary complications again.
 
#68
okay, my findings so far with experimenting with a 6 letter system, and writing out major and minor scales,

if a 6letter system were used, key signatures which eliminate the need to write out sharps and flats would be impossible- obviously you get the same number of sharps and flats in every major and every minor key to start, meaning the "three flats" etc. call of a bandleader to denote a specific key can't work (only the position of the sharps/flats in the signature on the staff would denote the pitch of the key), but you always get one sharp or flat left over- so one scale tone will have to be sharpened/flattened in the score.

(seasoned notation readers/theory experts are probably rolling their eyes:rolleyes:/ smacking their foreheads at this- but hey, no music book I've read ever explained that)
 
#69
Originally posted by The Mock Turtle Regulator



it's the 7 letter system I'm opposed to.
all the quirks I see seem to stem from this illogical system.
the argument that it allows a note letter for each scale tone only applies to certain keys. (C and G?)
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No, this works in every key.

Granted in certain keys, many notes get sharps or flats, but there are always (in 7 note scales) 7 letter names.
 
#70
Rather than using letter names, maybe we could make notation more user-friendly by making the nomenclature a little more personable. Instead of A-B-C-D-E-F-G, how about Doc-Sleepy-Bashful-Happy-Sneezy-Grumpy-Dopey? Heck, everyone loves the Seven Dwarves! And instead of sharps and flats, we could just use "up" and "down." Easy as pie!

"Okay fellas, 12-bar blues in Dopey Down. 1-2-3-4..."
 
#71
Originally posted by lump
Rather than using letter names, maybe we could make notation more user-friendly by making the nomenclature a little more personable. Instead of A-B-C-D-E-F-G, how about Doc-Sleepy-Bashful-Happy-Sneezy-Grumpy-Dopey? Heck, everyone loves the Seven Dwarves! And instead of sharps and flats, we could just use "up" and "down." Easy as pie!

"Okay fellas, 12-bar blues in Dopey Down. 1-2-3-4..."
Click to expand...


If you weren't in Korea, I'd make you come over to my house and clean all of this regurgitated coffee off of my monitor and keyboard. I think I just discovered why humans don't drink through their sinuses. :D
 
#74
Originally posted by lump
Rather than using letter names, maybe we could make notation more user-friendly by making the nomenclature a little more personable. Instead of A-B-C-D-E-F-G, how about Doc-Sleepy-Bashful-Happy-Sneezy-Grumpy-Dopey? Heck, everyone loves the Seven Dwarves! And instead of sharps and flats, we could just use "up" and "down." Easy as pie!

"Okay fellas, 12-bar blues in Dopey Down. 1-2-3-4..."
Click to expand...

oh my god, thats too funny, I litterly laughed my tail off when I read that.
 
#75
:eek:


i understand why i gave up guitar years ago. all those damn cycle of fifths and what-not. yeesh!


:D



but this is a damn good thread and it parallels the question i posed regarding getting bassists to understand notation.

bottom line is if everyone is on the same page music knowledge-wise , it makes it far more easy and efficient to communicate, and most of all, allows you to be creative with music.

i think there is definitely a degree of laziness and intimidation that comes into play when learning anything new, and notation and music itself is another language. it looks funny on the page when you first see it, and if you're dyslexic like me, you're really in for a doozer! :p but those who don't take the time out to learn will remain more rudimentary in their playing while those who do will grow. it's not life-altering stuff [well, ok... it is], but learning the whole meat and potatoes will certainly enhance your ear and your playing.

drummers [and i suspect] other musicians do this all the time; just learn enough to get by. then they bitch because they don't sound like tony williams. i don't get it. it takes a LONG time to get a handle on the many different aspects of music, but the rewards are immense if you're patient and take the time to practice regularly.

on a drumming note: the intellectual battle is only half the battle. you can read rhythms till you're blue in the face, but until you learn your basic 26 rudiments [or at least 5 or so], you really can't do squat on the kit. the problem is, there is no rushing muscle memory and development. you just have to suck it up and do a little at a time. i tried to rush the rudiments and getting my swiss matched grip together, and all i did was injure my thumb in a big way. it's getting better, but it set back my learning curve.


go for knowledge! you'll be a better player and accompanist.



peace!
miko
 
#77
Originally posted by The Mock Turtle Regulator




you've got 12 semitones in the western scale, why not six lettered notes, with a sharp available for each?
why seven lettered notes with no sharp available for B or E? (okay, they exist but B#= C and E#=F)

Click to expand...

How about 12 letters instead? Each note could have its own name.
 
#78
I suspect that since we haven't heard from TEENAGE MUTANT NINJA REGULATOR that he's finding out that what he's suggesting isn't working out as easily as he thought.


But don't give up hope! I've got another system for you. Twelve tones, each with it's own name. Here's the good part: It's transposable. That's right, you'll never have to worry about key signatures again! Everybody sing it with me:

Do, a deer, a female deer.
Ray, a drop of golden sun.....

:D
 
#79
yep, I have been considering using 12 letters, or even numbers 1-12 and a letter to denote the register, and mathematical rules to go with them.

also I've been reading about traditional Indian music- seems like the "default" key there was C as well, and they had seven note names to go with each scale note.

then again, they also used/use quarter tones and non-standard keys, consideration of which might wipe the smile off some of your faces:p
 
#80
But, as usual, a simple thread has morphed into a megabeast with horns. Geez, not only did Floodshon's post on the physics of equal temperment need a degree to write, it needs a degree to understand! This was NOT intended to be the usual SN vs TAB thread, nor was it to be an indictment of the SN system or western music in general.

My point in the original question (you guys remember that don't you?) was to get folks to recognizing where their fears and shortcomings are concerning notation so that they could get help with these points. I've found that when I don't understand something, anything, it's usually because there's one little detail that I'm hung up on. This stumble ruins the basis for everything built on top of it making the whole concept crumble in my mind. So, if you don't understand notation because of a key signature issue, recognize that and attack that point alone until it is clear enough to move on. If it's a rythym thing, concentrate on that until you are firm in your understanding. At some point along the line, there will be a "Eureka" moment and all will be clear from that point on.

I think that since most of us have, at least, some grasp of our instruments, it should be easier to learn notation. Compare your situation to the 4th grader learning music in their orchestra class at school. That child has to struggle with the notation system AND with making a pleasing tone come from their instrument. That kid has a lot to cope with all at once. You guys (non SN users) already have the fretboard knowledge and muscle coordination to make decent sounding notes and phrases. Adding the skill of reading SN and you become a much more complete musician.

Here is also a good place to make another distinction that might help with reading and I don't think it's been stated clearly. You don't have to be a theory genius to read music - PERIOD. You can, in fact, have very little theoretical knowledge of chord structure, harmony, or any of the other head swimming details that make the total picture of music. It's easy for me to attest to that because that's my situation exactly. All through school I learned to read music and my performances were based on that ability. I was a very good tuba player and was recognized by being placed in a couple of "all-star" bands. But all I could do WAS read. If you were to ask me a technical question regarding the music I was playing - and it was NOT something I had on the page in front of me - I wouldn't be able to answer. But if you were to listen to me play, you would never know that I didn't have the theory skills. Sort of like Floodshon's physics lesson earlier in the thread. Because I read english (very well) I could read his post out loud and it wouldn't be evident at all that I didn't understand the underlying concepts of his post. That would become apparent if I were asked to explain anything he stated. The same is true of SN. Learn to read it first, then if you like, learn the theory behind the notation.
 

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