You saved me five minutes of typing. Changed the verbiage to reflect my particulars.
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What is the inherent problem with a 4x10?
- Thread starter Konan888
- Start date
You saved me five minutes of typing. Changed the verbiage to reflect my particulars.
billfitzmaurice
Commercial User
- Sep 15, 2004
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- Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
Not in the least.
Some confusion here. It used to be typical to put cabs side by side and angle them outward in the attempt to widen dispersion. Horrible comb-filtering in the highs and more than halved dispersion in the mids resulted.
With a rig like Duke's most of the time two cabs are best used stacked with the top cab upside down, placing the horns together. For wider dispersion of the mids and highs stack them vertical, both with the horns at the top, with the bottom cab aimed where you need the wider coverage, the top cab at you. Preferably the cabs will be close to 90 degrees relative to each other, so that there's minimal overlapping of the coverage zones of the two horns, and therefore minimal combing. Since the horns are still very close to being on the same vertical plane there's no loss of midrange dispersion, but instead it's wider as intended.
Btw, Ken, I am pretty sure you are totally backwards about where midrange dispersion is most noticeable. I'd welcome some correction but I find it harder to tell when I am close up to a cabinet (within 10 feet or so) where exactly polar response falls off. I have always assumed this to be something of the "near field effect" where sound is really different when close to the point source, but I'd be interested to learn more about it. Most discussions of radiation patterns and sound decay I have read have focused on "far field" rather than "near field" whatever that means precisely.
How loud something is, specifically - you'll notice that if you put your head right next to a cabinet and then go 3 feet away, it doesn't sound 6db quieter to you - seems to relate to this.
My experience using cabinets with narrow dispersion patterns (4x10s, single 1x15s or 1x12s with no midrange drivers) has been that it's most noticeable out in the audience, where "hot spots" develop.
I think the reason a lot of people don't notice this is because of midrange reflections around a room. Room modes I think is the term for it, but the sound bounces around off of the ceiling, floor and other obstacles.
Maybe Bill could explain this properly or point us to a discussion if he's got time.
How loud something is, specifically - you'll notice that if you put your head right next to a cabinet and then go 3 feet away, it doesn't sound 6db quieter to you - seems to relate to this.
My experience using cabinets with narrow dispersion patterns (4x10s, single 1x15s or 1x12s with no midrange drivers) has been that it's most noticeable out in the audience, where "hot spots" develop.
I think the reason a lot of people don't notice this is because of midrange reflections around a room. Room modes I think is the term for it, but the sound bounces around off of the ceiling, floor and other obstacles.
Maybe Bill could explain this properly or point us to a discussion if he's got time.
Never really noticed this in the couple thousand 410's without PA support I've heard in clubs (standing every which way regarding distance, angles, etc.) over the past 30 years or so. Again, I'm sure it is there.... just doesn't seem to impact anything when amplifying the bass guitar.
billfitzmaurice
Commercial User
- Sep 15, 2004
- 16,860
- 278
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- Disclosures
- Owner, Bill Fitzmaurice Loudspeaker Design
With a 4x10, or any cab that's short, it's really hard to tell on stage where the mids drop out because those directional frequencies are passing you by below the belt, so you can't hear them really well anywhere. In the audience the difference between on and off-axis can be more obvious.
rockstarbassist
Inactive
Where did you read this and who wrote it? The 410 and 810 are pretty much "the" standards of bass cabinetry. This isn't new, either. If you're attempting to replicate earth and bowel-shattering lows with a cabinet on stage (which you shouldn't be anyway) then just get a subwoofer onstage. A 410 isn't meant to substitute for a PA, nor is any bass cab. And if you're not miking your cab in the first place, it really doesn't matter b/c it's just a heavy monitor. And even if you are, you'd be hard-pressed to find a mic that will replicate your bass frequencies as even and full as a DI.
Your thread = head hurt.
Your thread = head hurt.
Yeah, my thinking is that room reflections make it harder to detect in clubs, but I have definitely experienced it with 8x10s in big rooms.
I've also seen hot spots a lot - where the bass is really loud and in certain areas.
The place where polar response is the most obvious to me is outdoors.
Makes sense. Luckily, in big rooms and outdoors, most have front of house support that takes care of the coverage.
I have NEVER heard that there are "inherent problems with 4x10" cabs. NEVER.
That said, they tend to sound "different" than say a 2x15" or a 2x12'. But even then - this varies more by manufacturer than by configuration. I have played through less expensive 4x10 cabs that sounded awful to me, but a *quality* 4x10 - Aguitar, Berantino or Epifani (like I use) will sound just plain GOOD.
If there is one thing you can say about 4x10s in general, it might be that they produce fewer low-mids than say a 2x15" or 2x12"s - - I know that my rig can sound just a touch "scooped" if I EQ it wrong. But lows? Good lord, I can break a driveway with this cab. Full-on earthquake stuff. I've *never* heard a 15" loaded cab do that.
That said, they tend to sound "different" than say a 2x15" or a 2x12'. But even then - this varies more by manufacturer than by configuration. I have played through less expensive 4x10 cabs that sounded awful to me, but a *quality* 4x10 - Aguitar, Berantino or Epifani (like I use) will sound just plain GOOD.
If there is one thing you can say about 4x10s in general, it might be that they produce fewer low-mids than say a 2x15" or 2x12"s - - I know that my rig can sound just a touch "scooped" if I EQ it wrong. But lows? Good lord, I can break a driveway with this cab. Full-on earthquake stuff. I've *never* heard a 15" loaded cab do that.
This is true. The way I look at it from the "is there a problem with the 4x10" standpoint is that I don't see any real advantage to doing it the way it's done. It might not hurt anything, but it certainly doesn't help anything.
If you took any decent 4x10 and made it in a line array form factor, it'd sound just as good and be easier for you to hear close up. A line array 4x10 would even fit in the back of a car better, although not a trunk necessarily.
Until the new mini micro heads started hitting, there was one huge advantage - the classic 4x10 design has more surface area to hold a bass amp
Scentifically, the problems have been covered here, as has what I'm about to say, but hey..
my .02 is that it's down to the individual cab, and the individual taste, I've got a 4x10 markbass, and it's lacking in NOTHING, it's got more low end than I will EVER need. Crisp highs, and growly mids. Scientifically imperfect does not mean it will sound bad...
my .02 is that it's down to the individual cab, and the individual taste, I've got a 4x10 markbass, and it's lacking in NOTHING, it's got more low end than I will EVER need. Crisp highs, and growly mids. Scientifically imperfect does not mean it will sound bad...
Yah know - even some guitarists have figured out that your knees ain't where your ears are at . OTOH I don't think bass combos or cabs sound right up on a chair or stand. I use a 1x10 kickback for small gigs and a 1x10 combo powering a 1x15 extension cab underneath it for larger gigs and that seems to do it for me. Not quite as awesome sounding (and looking) as an Ampeg 'fridge but I'll leave the portage of them monsters to the youngins amongst us 
.
EDIT> I'm trying to say that a 4x10 is too low to be used by itself IMO .
. OTOH I don't think bass combos or cabs sound right up on a chair or stand. I use a 1x10 kickback for small gigs and a 1x10 combo powering a 1x15 extension cab underneath it for larger gigs and that seems to do it for me. Not quite as awesome sounding (and looking) as an Ampeg 'fridge but I'll leave the portage of them monsters to the youngins amongst us .EDIT> I'm trying to say that a 4x10 is too low to be used by itself IMO .
I've never had a problem with my 410s. They are gorgeous.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Dude above, you stole my band name. =P
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Dude above, you stole my band name. =P
No, but it does mean it'll sound slightly (if not perceptibly so for all people) worse than the same exact design in a different shaped box.
It kills me to get the same amount of wood, the same speakers, same crossover, same horn, but in a shape that is worse, for no reason at all.
It's even a pain in the ass to carry the typical 4x10 (for me). They're usually just wide enough to be uncomfortable (wider than 21" or so is my limit).
People make it out like it's the end of the world, but it's not, you are right. If you like the sound and it works, there's nothing wrong with it.
But for me, it'd be like if I went out to buy a refrigerator and getting the one with the short water dispenser that can't fit a pitcher under it for the same price as the one that can.
I mostly do sound these days and if your rig doesn't suck I'll normally mic the cab over using a DI - especially when it's a nice tube amp. I might ask you to un-scoop the mids a bit though if your "one of THOSE guys"
.There are any number of mics suitable for that - most any kick mic except for the Audix D6 (which is kinda pre-eq'd for a kick).
what I find interesting re: this whole debate... when placed into the context of a traditional rock band (bass, guitars, drums)... no matter how much thought we bassists might put into things like stage dispersion, I can't imagine any guitarist buying into it. and therefore, there are probably very few guitar cabinets that would feature the ideal positioning anyway... mostly rendering the whole point rather moot, no?
Given, just cuz one or two members of the band are going to ignore science doesn't mean we should too... But I wonder how much an audience really cares if the full frequency response of my bass is being properly dispersed when my guitarist is beaming all his highs straight out of an AC-30 horizontal 2x12... with an open-backed cabinet.
Given, just cuz one or two members of the band are going to ignore science doesn't mean we should too... But I wonder how much an audience really cares if the full frequency response of my bass is being properly dispersed when my guitarist is beaming all his highs straight out of an AC-30 horizontal 2x12... with an open-backed cabinet.
