What is the inherent problem with a 4x10?

[DukeLeJeune]

Beam blockers do work, just not all that well. They operate the same way all phase plugs do, they're just not sophisticated enough to work really well. A well engineered phase plug would cure beaming...

Some years ago I measured a ring-radiator type tweeter (with integral "phase plug") and compared it to a same-diameter dome. The ring-radiator's pattern had less pronounced lobing as I recall, but overall was not really wider, so I pretty much dismissed "phase plugs" (in that sense of the word, not in the compression driver sense) as a pattern-broadening device. But maybe that dismissal was a mistake?

 

[shoot-r]

I was considering the 4x10 until now. I recently read that the
4x10's have inherent problems. What sre they?

What I've gleaned from what has been said from this thread and past posts on this subject is the standard configured 410 design is good, just that " IF " you go with a vertical/line array 410, (two 210's), you can achieve a few advantages over the standard 410.
Better mids dispersion.
Better projection.
Better coverage across the stage.
Less phase issues.
Height advantage of a 810 cabinet, (speaker up closer to your ears), but with a smaller foot-print on stage.
Ability to use one or both cabinets as the situation dictates.

 

[NWB]

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

One doesn't need Commander Data's understanding of physics to know that sound waves do not require any distance from the source to 'formulate'.

Oh, but it' so true. I have to use a wireless system and stand outside in the yard (snow, rain, wind) while playing so that I can hear my lower notes. If I stand in the same room as my amp - nothing audible below about 4,326 Hz.

Maybe I need a bigger house.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Some years ago I measured a ring-radiator type tweeter (with integral "phase plug") and compared it to a same-diameter dome. The ring-radiator's pattern had less pronounced lobing as I recall, but overall was not really wider, so I pretty much dismissed "phase plugs" (in that sense of the word, not in the compression driver sense) as a pattern-broadening device. But maybe that dismissal was a mistake?

In theory phase plugs with the right geometry would help tame beaming quite a bit. The main obstacle to figuring them out is how much of a PITA it is to measure the results of dozens of configurations until you find the best one.

 

[JimmyM]

Oh, but it' so true. I have to use a wireless system and stand outside in the yard (snow, rain, wind) while playing so that I can hear my lower notes. If I stand in the same room as my amp - nothing audible below about 4,326 Hz.

Maybe I need a bigger house.

maybe you should lay off the 3 martini lunches before you play your bass

 

[TRU]

Manufacturers don't make vertically arrayed guitar 2x12s because they don't think they'll sell, guitar players can't try them because manufacturers don't make them, and besides, who wants their amp overhanging the speaker on both ends?

A fellow guitarist is using this:
Invalid Link Removed

He seems to be an early adopter.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

A fellow guitarist is using this:
Invalid Link Removed

I'd bet not with a Plexi head.

 

[NWB]

maybe you should lay off the 3 martini lunches before you play your bass

Oh, no way dude, that would take all the fun out of it.

Plus, I'd freeze to death playing in the yard without a couple in me.

 

[NWB]

If you've never listened to a 4x10 compared to a pair of vertical 2x10s side by side while wandering through the audience there's no basis for comparison. Ignorance is bliss, and there's a lot of blissful 4x10 owners out there. It's certainly not their fault, they can only use what's offered.
Catch 22. Manufacturers don't make vertically arrayed guitar 2x12s because they don't think they'll sell, guitar players can't try them because manufacturers don't make them, and besides, who wants their amp overhanging the speaker on both ends?

My guitarist had a Mesa 2x12 that was vertically oriented. We both liked it better than his previous 4x12. It really sounded very good. Unfortunately he sold it.

 

[ishouldbeking]

I'd bet not with a Plexi head.

probably not... but you know with the newer breed of "lunchbox" heads like the Orange Tiny Terror and Vox Night Train, there might be some guitar folks willing to explore this stuff... since the aural proof would be in the sonic pudding.

 

[Derek Kiernan]

With Jay's permission, I may be using a variation of his invention in a future commercial electric guitar cab.

Invalid Link Removed

"Third, the refinement path - were one to pursue such a path - is to graduate the thickness of the foam from edge to center, with the center being thinnest. This would create the effect of a virtual source that varies continuously in size with frequency, maintaining a perfectly fixed relationship between source size and wavelength. Given the near-ideal performance of the simplest possible implementation - the one I have implemented and described here - pursuing this refinement path would be unproductive."

Maybe you could try experimenting along these lines and get even better performance.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Invalid Link Removed

"Third, the refinement path - were one to pursue such a path - is to graduate the thickness of the foam from edge to center, with the center being thinnest. This would create the effect of a virtual source that varies continuously in size with frequency, maintaining a perfectly fixed relationship between source size and wavelength. Given the near-ideal performance of the simplest possible implementation - the one I have implemented and described here - pursuing this refinement path would be unproductive."

What's described is a variation of the acoustic lens used by JBL (and others) on horn tweeters to broaden dispersion. Foam would work, but not nearly as well as the perforated lens of the JBL 2301, seen on page 2 here:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

How it works is seen in section 1-5 here:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[Derek Kiernan]

Thanks for the references Bill!

 

[aborgman]

A fellow guitarist is using this:
Invalid Link Removed

He seems to be an early adopter.

One of our guitar players plays this:

It's a vertical 2x10.

 

[snowtraveler65]

Presently I am using a Traynor TC115,Ampeg 2x10He and GK800RB.

I love the head. I am not totally happy with the cabs. When hitting a B note on the e string the 2x10 resonates and its annoying. I have been considering changing cabs. I was considering the 4x10 until now. I recently read that the
4x10's have inherent problems. What sre they?

I like to play reggae and rock. Should I consider something else?

Victor Wooten is all about tone and clarity and he plays through through two side-by-side 4x10's each on top of a 1x15. The dispersion issue doesn't seem to come into play as far as he is concerned. Just sayin'...

 

[SanDiegoHarry]

it depends on the cab & Brand.

My 2x10s have no issue with low B's.

The only problem I can see with a 4x10 is that they are HEAVY. That's it.

 

[georgestrings]

Victor Wooten is all about tone and clarity and he plays through through two side-by-side 4x10's each on top of a 1x15. The dispersion issue doesn't seem to come into play as far as he is concerned. Just sayin'...

Although undoubtably a great player, I wouldn't use Vic's gear as any kind of measuring stick - after all, he also endorses that rediculously over-prices IEC cable, too...


- georgestrings

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Although undoubtably a great player, I wouldn't use Vic's gear as any kind of measuring stick - after all, he also endorses that rediculously over-prices IEC cable, too...


- georgestrings

+1. Anyone who shills $150 power cords has zero credibility where gear is concerned, no matter how well he plays.

 

[georgestrings]

+1. Anyone who shills $150 power cords has zero credibility where gear is concerned, no matter how well he plays.

Exactly...



- georgestrings