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What makes an expensive bass expensive?
- Thread starter TinyE
- Start date
Just Thumpin'
Commercial User
- Mar 7, 2008
- 4,534
- 1,664
- Disclosures
- Manager and Partner, Fodera Guitars (10/14/09 - 12/16/19)
The biggest cost comes from Labor followed by materials. If you work with skilled artisans that are paid well (with things like health benefits and a retirement plan) then your labor costs are far, far higher than they would otherwise be. Additionally, the way in which we build instruments is more rooted in the 19th century than the 21st century, so the number of hours spent on each instrument is many, many, many times that of what you'll generally see being spent on a less expensive one.
In terms of materials, a fanatical obsession with only using the best leads to lots of expense from sourcing the best wood followed by lots of waste (for wood that might look fine but sound poorly).
Then we use all proprietary parts in our instruments with the exception of the machine heads. Everything else is made for us (or by us) to our designs and specs in very small batches. And, as anyone in manufacturing knows, low volume production is very expensive because there are no economies of scale to be had. The cost (to us) for a set of our dual coil pickups far exceeds that of the retail price of some very well known entry level instruments.
Finally, we all live and work in and around the New York Metropolitan area and that entails its own level of expense both from a real estate and personnel cost standpoint.
There are many threads here on TB where I post in great detail about the costs of running Fodera, but at the end of the day we consider ourselves quite fortunate if in any given time period if we can earn a 10% - 12% profit margin. So, one place that the money paid for our instruments generally does not go in abundance is to making a lot of money for us as owners.
I hope this makes sense.
Kindest regards,
Jason
In terms of materials, a fanatical obsession with only using the best leads to lots of expense from sourcing the best wood followed by lots of waste (for wood that might look fine but sound poorly).
Then we use all proprietary parts in our instruments with the exception of the machine heads. Everything else is made for us (or by us) to our designs and specs in very small batches. And, as anyone in manufacturing knows, low volume production is very expensive because there are no economies of scale to be had. The cost (to us) for a set of our dual coil pickups far exceeds that of the retail price of some very well known entry level instruments.
Finally, we all live and work in and around the New York Metropolitan area and that entails its own level of expense both from a real estate and personnel cost standpoint.
There are many threads here on TB where I post in great detail about the costs of running Fodera, but at the end of the day we consider ourselves quite fortunate if in any given time period if we can earn a 10% - 12% profit margin. So, one place that the money paid for our instruments generally does not go in abundance is to making a lot of money for us as owners.
I hope this makes sense.
Kindest regards,
Jason
The biggest single difference between a $300 bass and a $3000 bass is mass production. Quantity is what brings the price down.
A $300 bass is ordered and built in quantities of at least 1000 instruments at a time. Often it's 5000 or 10,000 at a time. That factory in China or Indonesia is a real mass-production factory. It has a couple million dollars worth of machines and tooling and fixtures all set up for fast production. CNC machines are part of it, but most of the work is still done with old fashioned labor and good tooling. There are a hundred employees working assembly-line style, each doing a particular job over and over. Yes, their labor cost is cheaper over there than here in the US, but the big reason the cost is lower is the total number of hours spent per instrument. A bass that retails for $300 is built in one of those factories in less than 5 hours total.
At the same time, all of the wood, metal, paint, screws, etc., are purchased ahead of time in quantities of many thousands' of instruments worth at a time. That's a huge difference in the cost per instrument for materials. Same for outsourced parts like bridges and tuners and pickups. Those are competitively bid out to smaller supplier companies who are all tooled up to make that one component. And the orders are for thousands at a time.
That's how you get a bass down to a retail price of $300. Someone has to make a big investment to order 1000 basses of a particular design. They may be in a few different colors, but they have to all use the same tooling and process to get that low price. And 1000 basses is like a minimum order to those factories. The more you order, the lower the price goes. To the factory, an order for 1000 basses is maybe 2 weeks work. They are taking orders for batches of instruments from customers all over the world. The only way that they can work efficiently and keep their prices low is to build in large batches at a time.
For the investor, there's a huge financial risk. They have to drop maybe $200K up front to have the basses build, and then hope that they can sell them all for prices that can make their money back, and make a profit too. Otherwise, why bother? The investor might be Guitar Center, who orders 1000 basses of their own in-house brand. Or it might be SplatMaster Guitars, who take out a loan to order 1000 SplatMaster basses. They then try to sell them to Guitar Center, and local music stores. Whatever those guys don't buy goes up on ebay for less than they paid. The risks are huge. What happens if nobody likes the SplatMasters, and Guitar Center cancels their order? Or when they open up the containers, one third of the new SplatMasters have twisted necks or bad frets, and are unsellable? They are stuck with them, and will take a big loss.
In comparison, a $3000 bass is built by a small company of 1 to 10 people. The basses are built in small batches of one or several at a time. A lot more labor goes into each bass, more like 30 to 70 hours each. Some of it is because of extra time added for higher quality and care, but a lot of the extra time is because of the inefficiency of working in small batches. It's not a rapid assembly line. Each person does a whole series of operations on one bass, then moves to the next bass and does them all over. And there's a lot more variation and custom orders between instruments. There's still a lot of financial risk for the small builder, but it's on a per-instrument basis. A dumb slip of a router or a bad piece of wood can wipe out all of the profit that would be made on a particular bass.
In almost all cases, a $3000 bass is going to be higher quality than a $300 bass. Better quality wood is a small part of it, but it's mostly about hours spent. It's about a 10 to 1 ratio in the hours spent building them. The extra time buys extra care on each step. Three hours on the frets and an hour on the setup are expected on a $3000 bass. That's not going to happen on a $300 bass, which only takes 5 hours total to build.
The extra expense buys skilled labor hours.
A $300 bass is ordered and built in quantities of at least 1000 instruments at a time. Often it's 5000 or 10,000 at a time. That factory in China or Indonesia is a real mass-production factory. It has a couple million dollars worth of machines and tooling and fixtures all set up for fast production. CNC machines are part of it, but most of the work is still done with old fashioned labor and good tooling. There are a hundred employees working assembly-line style, each doing a particular job over and over. Yes, their labor cost is cheaper over there than here in the US, but the big reason the cost is lower is the total number of hours spent per instrument. A bass that retails for $300 is built in one of those factories in less than 5 hours total.
At the same time, all of the wood, metal, paint, screws, etc., are purchased ahead of time in quantities of many thousands' of instruments worth at a time. That's a huge difference in the cost per instrument for materials. Same for outsourced parts like bridges and tuners and pickups. Those are competitively bid out to smaller supplier companies who are all tooled up to make that one component. And the orders are for thousands at a time.
That's how you get a bass down to a retail price of $300. Someone has to make a big investment to order 1000 basses of a particular design. They may be in a few different colors, but they have to all use the same tooling and process to get that low price. And 1000 basses is like a minimum order to those factories. The more you order, the lower the price goes. To the factory, an order for 1000 basses is maybe 2 weeks work. They are taking orders for batches of instruments from customers all over the world. The only way that they can work efficiently and keep their prices low is to build in large batches at a time.
For the investor, there's a huge financial risk. They have to drop maybe $200K up front to have the basses build, and then hope that they can sell them all for prices that can make their money back, and make a profit too. Otherwise, why bother? The investor might be Guitar Center, who orders 1000 basses of their own in-house brand. Or it might be SplatMaster Guitars, who take out a loan to order 1000 SplatMaster basses. They then try to sell them to Guitar Center, and local music stores. Whatever those guys don't buy goes up on ebay for less than they paid. The risks are huge. What happens if nobody likes the SplatMasters, and Guitar Center cancels their order? Or when they open up the containers, one third of the new SplatMasters have twisted necks or bad frets, and are unsellable? They are stuck with them, and will take a big loss.
In comparison, a $3000 bass is built by a small company of 1 to 10 people. The basses are built in small batches of one or several at a time. A lot more labor goes into each bass, more like 30 to 70 hours each. Some of it is because of extra time added for higher quality and care, but a lot of the extra time is because of the inefficiency of working in small batches. It's not a rapid assembly line. Each person does a whole series of operations on one bass, then moves to the next bass and does them all over. And there's a lot more variation and custom orders between instruments. There's still a lot of financial risk for the small builder, but it's on a per-instrument basis. A dumb slip of a router or a bad piece of wood can wipe out all of the profit that would be made on a particular bass.
In almost all cases, a $3000 bass is going to be higher quality than a $300 bass. Better quality wood is a small part of it, but it's mostly about hours spent. It's about a 10 to 1 ratio in the hours spent building them. The extra time buys extra care on each step. Three hours on the frets and an hour on the setup are expected on a $3000 bass. That's not going to happen on a $300 bass, which only takes 5 hours total to build.
The extra expense buys skilled labor hours.
What do carrots taste like? How hard is a rock? If you want to know what you are missing, go try one. If YOU think it's worth the money, buy it. If you are happy with what you own, enjoy it.
BassHappy
Supporting Member
Nope, not my approach at all. If you are going to the trouble of buying a handmade custom bass - sure, play every model that the builder offers but don't necessarily buy it. Almost any bass I play, i go wow, I love this but if it only had......
Go to his shop if you need to, and he doesn't invite you over to look and play his offerings - go somewhere else. Take in every possibility he offers, and discuss every fantasy option you may have. See if he will let you pick out our own wood - see if he is willing to build the scale length you need and see if you can bring him your favorite neck and have him duplicate the dimensions exactly - or alternatively, ask if he will carve the neck to your hand while you are there. See if he has flexibility as to the electronics you prefer. Maybe you want to swap features out between several of the bass models he offers.
Don't just play and buy - that defeats the purpose of a custom bass in my eyes - figure out exactly what features you want in your fantasy instrument, then order YOURS custom. There is normally not much of an upcharge for this (depending) and your bass will then be uniquely yours.
Sorry if I strayed a little from the OP.
BassHappy
www.innertainment.net
First I would break the market into three segments:
1.) Mass Produced, base consumer, instruments under $1000
2.) Pro-sumer, mid level basses between $1001 and $2500
3.) High level, boutique or hand crafted basses $2500+
The category 1 basses are typically made overseas, which used to be an issue but globalization now allows Asian or Latin American basses to be made pretty well. They tend to use generic electronics, have simple hardware with finishes that won't last very long, and the woods are cheap. Because the body tone woods are not chosen for their quality, they are usually painted with a sealing top coat. Right off the shelf they are more prone to have defects (warped necks, bad frets, bad shielding, noisy electronics, etc) and sometimes bad neck dive from cheap, light body woods. These instruments can be good, but they are designed to be sold to a large audience in large numbers for as much profit as possible.
Category 2 basses have a little more attention paid to the materials that go into the bass. Some may still be made in Asia, but as you start getting closer to the $2k mark you see more US and European made basses that are assembled at the "main" factory. At this level you will see more name brand parts for the electronics, bridge and tuners. Better woods that are selected with more care are used, and tone begins to equal profitability. The off the shelf builds tend to be a little more turn key ready. The finishes begin to become more exotic and slick since the grain of the woods is more attractive. Because of the higher price point, there tend to be few design flaws or corners cut.
Category 3 basses are the high level instruments that can reach into the tens of thousands of dollars depending on the brand. Here costs aren't as high a concern as the quality of the instrument. Larger brands like Warwick, Lakland or Sadowsky use exotic woods, specialized electronics or have some other unique quality that makes it stand out, while still having "off the shelf" models as well as customized models. Some shops like Pedulla, Wal and Carl Thompson are overseen by the person who's name is on the bass or a very small crew of luthiers. These are made to order to the specs of the players and can take months to years to be made.
Then there is the highly subjective vintage markets. Personally I don't care about vintage instruments because they having little interest to me.
1.) Mass Produced, base consumer, instruments under $1000
2.) Pro-sumer, mid level basses between $1001 and $2500
3.) High level, boutique or hand crafted basses $2500+
The category 1 basses are typically made overseas, which used to be an issue but globalization now allows Asian or Latin American basses to be made pretty well. They tend to use generic electronics, have simple hardware with finishes that won't last very long, and the woods are cheap. Because the body tone woods are not chosen for their quality, they are usually painted with a sealing top coat. Right off the shelf they are more prone to have defects (warped necks, bad frets, bad shielding, noisy electronics, etc) and sometimes bad neck dive from cheap, light body woods. These instruments can be good, but they are designed to be sold to a large audience in large numbers for as much profit as possible.
Category 2 basses have a little more attention paid to the materials that go into the bass. Some may still be made in Asia, but as you start getting closer to the $2k mark you see more US and European made basses that are assembled at the "main" factory. At this level you will see more name brand parts for the electronics, bridge and tuners. Better woods that are selected with more care are used, and tone begins to equal profitability. The off the shelf builds tend to be a little more turn key ready. The finishes begin to become more exotic and slick since the grain of the woods is more attractive. Because of the higher price point, there tend to be few design flaws or corners cut.
Category 3 basses are the high level instruments that can reach into the tens of thousands of dollars depending on the brand. Here costs aren't as high a concern as the quality of the instrument. Larger brands like Warwick, Lakland or Sadowsky use exotic woods, specialized electronics or have some other unique quality that makes it stand out, while still having "off the shelf" models as well as customized models. Some shops like Pedulla, Wal and Carl Thompson are overseen by the person who's name is on the bass or a very small crew of luthiers. These are made to order to the specs of the players and can take months to years to be made.
Then there is the highly subjective vintage markets. Personally I don't care about vintage instruments because they having little interest to me.
Do a search on this topic. It comes up over and over again.
Hard to try these out, since one of the things that makes many of them expensive is that there is an expert luthier and a very small staff hand selecting wood and sometimes hand carving some or all of the instruments. So, time consuming, labor intensive, relatively expensive parts, and low number of instruments made.
What makes a Ferrari better than a Chevy? They are both mostly metal, glass and plastic, and go when you push the gas
Pacojas: I was wondering the same thing!
This:
I'll try to post some sound clips later.
Even on mass-produced instruments there are variations dependent on those factors. You can walk into your local guitar shop for example and grab three identical Les Pauls, plug them in, and find they each have a unique character to them. Physically they are identical: You cannot measure a difference between them, but wood is a natural product and varies from piece to piece enough to make a difference.
parts, labor and attention to detail. I like when creativity gives us rear rout covers that magnetically adhere and that are practically invisible, the grain being seemless.Then there's the parts. I wanted a dual split pup (dual P's) body for a new bass but while searching for pups I found Aero pj5's which are made like and have the characteristics of split pup's but are inline not staggered. So I decided I'll buy the Aero @ $235 because a finished instrument would cost me way more. Now I can have my P/J Gecko fitted with a second Pe, http://www.aeroinstrument.com/pj.html wound to my tastes which will compliment the P-46 in the neck position. P-46 $64.00, Aero PJ5 $235 (with plastic J shell)...the price of parts do matter.
Pretty much, Boogie Bodies became Warmoth. The same people and facilities. Just pre-1980 was Boogie Bodies, post 1980 it was Warmoth.
Go to Alembic's website and checkout the custom gallery...
Www.alembic.com
In addition to time, effort, detail, investment, there is the straitup "fine-art" factor. Alembics, Fodera, Carl Thompson, Jens Ritter, etc... Are straitup pieces of ART.
Www.alembic.com
In addition to time, effort, detail, investment, there is the straitup "fine-art" factor. Alembics, Fodera, Carl Thompson, Jens Ritter, etc... Are straitup pieces of ART.
Once you get past the $2K-$2.5K level, it is all about EXCLUSIVITY.
Just like any product or service, those crazy high prices ($200K Country Club entry fee, $20K watch, million dollar auto). People who can afford to pay want people who cannot afford to pay to not have......Also supply and demand, investments, art pieces, concepts like that come into play.
Just like any product or service, those crazy high prices ($200K Country Club entry fee, $20K watch, million dollar auto). People who can afford to pay want people who cannot afford to pay to not have......Also supply and demand, investments, art pieces, concepts like that come into play.
Jazzdogg
Less barking, more wagging!
Chef
In Memoriam
more expensive components: better/rarer woods; tuners, pickups, preamps, bridge, etc
more labor. hours and hours of hand routing and finishing wood to fit, sand and seal, paint, assemble, adjust, etc.
if the difference in performance/feel between squier, fender, or whichever, and Ssadowsky, Roscoe or whichever doesn't matter to you, then the diff in price isn't worth it, to you.
this is fine.
more labor. hours and hours of hand routing and finishing wood to fit, sand and seal, paint, assemble, adjust, etc.
if the difference in performance/feel between squier, fender, or whichever, and Ssadowsky, Roscoe or whichever doesn't matter to you, then the diff in price isn't worth it, to you.
this is fine.
