What should I do about this band / drummer?

[CaptainGreen]

having read the posts from my previous one to here but not all the early ones, I would say this.
point 1: you have never been in a giggging band, and are very anxious to do so. I have never played gigs as a bassist, but i did for years as a drummer. And yes it as sweet as you imagine it to be, even if only at a small venue level.
point 2: Everyone pays dues to get there, even the super talented. most of the advice here is from guys who have been playing so long that they don't remember the struggle before they found or grew the band to gig with.
point 3: every band that is on its way to success but not yet there has some members who are more advanced, and some who are less so.
point 4: those who are less talented, but still capable of making it will advance better in an environment with mentors. I know for certain that i was the weakest player in the first band i played actual gigs with. at least for the first year or so. They tolerated me, and probably lost some gigs because of me. but they decided I was worth helping.

Then things suddenly fell into place and click got better. for me it was partly because i played in school bands, including marching band. I always played with a marching grip on my sticks (left hand with an underhand grip) and just couldn't make some of the transitions smoothly, especially when using a combination of open and closed rudiments (with a stroke for every contact vs using the bounce to close the rolls,etc) Once i abandoned the marching grip for a matched grip style of playing, (which was very hard to do, because it felt wrong) it took a matter of weeks to advance years worth of development. The reason is i already had the skills and knew what i wanted to do but my mechanics got in the way.

Now you have to decide. If nobody ever helped you past a time when you just weren't smooth where would you be. It is easy to say move on without the drummer! and if you were a player who had played in a gigging band for years you would be totally justified. And yes i fully understand the interaction between drummer and bassist. I play both instruments.
solution 1: If the drummer is capable of making it (with some help) i would say that you would be less of the kind of musician i would want to play with if you just gave him up. So chalk it up as extended learning time and work it out with him.
solution2: If he just doesn't have what it takes, then and only then would i say that you as a player with no gigging experience yourself, are justified in leveling an ultimatum. The trick is knowing what is the real situation. You never know, it could be as simple as a change in grip.

All good points thank you for your thoughtful reply.

We have another rehearsal this Thursday and I’ll try to get some more info on what his practice routine is and what, if any, guidance or teachers he is working with. Just going by observation he seems to be very preoccupied with patterns and fills at the expense of steady timing & locking in. Anyway I may see if there is a chance for us getting together for a 1-on-1 to drill in the concept that simple+steady wins over fancy+sloppy.

I’ll try to record the next rehearsal and maybe pitch the 1-on-1 approach; & hopefully out of it we can start playing like a rhythm section. I don’t have a lot of extra time to put into this 1-on-1 thing but if it looks like he’s putting in the work and willing to take some advice then like I mentioned I would really like this group to work out. Anyway I’ll update after the next round.

 

[CaptainGreen]

Haven't read the thread, but my 2 cents:
This is tough and you need to be honest with yourself regarding if you can manage to hang with inconsistent drumming or not. If he's a s green as you say, he's probably not going to improve dramatically in any short term reality - if at all. If you see this being a big problem for you, it's better to cut your losses now. I personally hate fighting time with the drummer - it takes away al ability to groove if I can't relax and lean into a steady beat.

That said, given that you are relatively new to the scene yourself, you may want to try to work with him as you yourself grow. As painful as it is, it'll be good for you to get some "band" time under your belt. I was very fortunate to have worked with some very good and helpful drummers who mentored me into being a bassist that drummers love to work with. Maybe you can do that for him? This will require a lot of patience.

Given what you said, I'd probably be inclined to have a private chat with the guitar player, maybe see if he feels the same way and if he thinks there is any chance he's replaceable. Proceed with your decision form there.

I am definitely realizing how fortunate I am to have a good drummer in my other bands. I am still in a holding pattern with this new group because the singer still hasn’t joined us since the audition due to being sick so I really am waiting to get the full picture of what the others’ reactions or expectations are for the group/drummer. If it is apparent to everyone and it’s something that is being addressed then I will feel a lot more comfortable than if everyone is oblivious to it.

 

[CaptainGreen]

Is he getting any better with time and practice?

Time will tell. Third audition this week.

 

[BlueTalon]

...but if it looks like he’s putting in the work and willing to take some advice then like I mentioned I would really like this group to work out.

That really is the key.

 

[Lemur Bassman]

Long rant I just need to brain-dump and get some feedback.

timeline: My audition + 2 rehearsals so far.

Man I really want to like this new band, great singer, great guitarist, I enjoy the music (late 70s early 80s rock & pop covers) and good attitudes. They want to bring in a keyboardist and backup singer and it sounds like it will be a good group to gig with.

The thing is, the drummer… Nice guy but he appears to be brand new on the drums and has absolutely no natural feel for groove or timing. Overplays, no dynamics all hits are *PLAM PLAM POP BANG*. The meter is in constant rush & drag I mean like within each measure. It’s so hard to concentrate and just get a groove going. Fills are rushed & misplaced, sometimes looses the 1 or flips the 3 and the 1 and doesn’t realize it sounds off. Sometimes I just pause and correct for it which throws everyone off & other times I try to motion or establish some gestures when this happens to little avail. Any rhythm with a shuffle is way out of grasp.

I am no drummer but I think that he’s trying to dance before he has learned to walk. He does take critique pretty well and I am really trying to not be an jerk or a bully about it. I will mention “hey on this next one is it cool if I throw on a click? I think it will help us all tighten up.” “Cool no problem!” so I put it on, LOUD, and we are playing and he’s still rushing the click, like, lapping it and just happily plowing through as if it’s spot on and it’s even more confusing so I drop that idea. Or I’ll mention “hey how about a very simple backbeat to keep this simple & clean, we don’t have to try to reproduce all of the complex things going on with the record we just need to lay down a good steady beat that’s the #1 job everything else is secondary.” I do this as subtly as I can, like lean over and discuss as a rhythm section; But his reply usually seems to go toward “yeah I think I’ve almost got it I just need to get this song down. It’s kind of like a boom ba cha tap tap thing” like no man develop a steady basic 4/4 or 2/4 for now, forget the song.

I am pretty sure that everyone in the band is aware that the drummer is not great, but the problem is it’s a new band that the singer and drummer founded. I’m not sure how far the two go back or how good of friends they are. I’m the newest member so I don’t really have much of a say at this point. The guitarist has been in a project or two with the singer before so I think he’s just riding with this to see where it goes. Also the drummer has secured & is paying for the rehearsal space, which is great but also really kind of entrenches himself in the whole thing.

Here’s the other thing: I’m no pro myself, I am pretty solid and I think that I am good with staying in the pocket and playing to the song but also I’m late 30s and have only been playing a few years. I have played with a few bands for a couple years up until this point and my personal goal is to work with a gigging band (when/if that is ever possible considering the pandemic) but none of these bands actually ended up gigging for one reason or another (pandemic, lack of clear goal to do-so, been-there-done-that, etc). For this reason I don’t have a ton of music connections or opportunities and a lot of working bands understandably see this as a red flag that I don’t have any gigging experience and there are not a lot of 30/40 year old groups that haven’t been playing/gigging for 20 years already. So my only source of connections is hitting up CL & FB musicians-wanted groups.

Is there hope with this project / drummer? Should I cut and run? Can a drummer that is new and has a good attitude but seemingly has no natural rhythm come around in a few months? What would you do in this situation?

Ok, let's assess this situation and get real. (1) great music, (2) great singer, and (3) great guitarist. You know how you feel and what's going on and you are voicing it. Simply put...you are not 100% happy. Ok, do you have a GOOD relationship; a trusting relationship with either the singer and/or guitarist? If so, take a chance and pull them aside to get their perspective on the situation with the drummer and moving forward. PS: I am both a drummer and bass player so I totally get it! Peace out!

 

[dasherf17]

It's TB and you're a bass player so you know the only answer!

You say you're pretty sure everyone knows...have all spoken about it away from the drummer (and the singer, if they're tight)?
Maybe you guys can work out some agreeable solution.tg

 

[QORC]

Any band is only as good as its weakest link. If the rest of the band is fine with a sloppy drummer,, time to fire yourself. This band won't go far with a lousy drummer

 

[Killing Floor]

Any band is only as good as its weakest link. If the rest of the band is fine with a sloppy drummer,, time to fire yourself. This band won't go far with a lousy drummer

Deep down all drummers just want to get fired. That's why they don't shut up after the song. That's why they show up late or sleep through showcases because their alarm didn't go off because they didn't set it because they were too high. Technically it's not their fault if they're too high to set an alarm. But it's going against nature to not fire the drummer once in a while.
If you really need to feel neglected just use an app with settings that match the drummer you had:

 

[pepj]

Depending on your expectations.
But a poor drummer pretty much ruins everything else. Time and groove are the bare necessities for useable drummer.
Total dealbreaker.

 

[OpposableThumbs]

I played drums for years. Big band, rock, jazz, original music......no matter the style I was always expected to keep time and play the correct rhythms for the song. That was just a basic expectation. If your guy can't do that then it is time for him to woodshed with a metronome and play along to the recorded versions of the songs. That should teach him decent time, dynamics, and some feel.

 

[pepj]

Except if they have played for good few years and never got this stage, they arent going to get there now without a massive change.

I had a recent exchange with a drummer who has no feel and groove. He used the supplied kit which needed tuning at least. When i asked him or mentioned it sounded poor (big hint), he said he'd tuned a kit about 3 times in 30 years and didnt know how.
Words failed me, I left them to it

 

[slam dunk]

Long rant I just need to brain-dump and get some feedback.

timeline: My audition + 2 rehearsals so far.

Man I really want to like this new band, great singer, great guitarist, I enjoy the music (late 70s early 80s rock & pop covers) and good attitudes. They want to bring in a keyboardist and backup singer and it sounds like it will be a good group to gig with.

The thing is, the drummer… Nice guy but he appears to be brand new on the drums and has absolutely no natural feel for groove or timing. Overplays, no dynamics all hits are *PLAM PLAM POP BANG*. The meter is in constant rush & drag I mean like within each measure. It’s so hard to concentrate and just get a groove going. Fills are rushed & misplaced, sometimes looses the 1 or flips the 3 and the 1 and doesn’t realize it sounds off. Sometimes I just pause and correct for it which throws everyone off & other times I try to motion or establish some gestures when this happens to little avail. Any rhythm with a shuffle is way out of grasp.

I am no drummer but I think that he’s trying to dance before he has learned to walk. He does take critique pretty well and I am really trying to not be an jerk or a bully about it. I will mention “hey on this next one is it cool if I throw on a click? I think it will help us all tighten up.” “Cool no problem!” so I put it on, LOUD, and we are playing and he’s still rushing the click, like, lapping it and just happily plowing through as if it’s spot on and it’s even more confusing so I drop that idea. Or I’ll mention “hey how about a very simple backbeat to keep this simple & clean, we don’t have to try to reproduce all of the complex things going on with the record we just need to lay down a good steady beat that’s the #1 job everything else is secondary.” I do this as subtly as I can, like lean over and discuss as a rhythm section; But his reply usually seems to go toward “yeah I think I’ve almost got it I just need to get this song down. It’s kind of like a boom ba cha tap tap thing” like no man develop a steady basic 4/4 or 2/4 for now, forget the song.

I am pretty sure that everyone in the band is aware that the drummer is not great, but the problem is it’s a new band that the singer and drummer founded. I’m not sure how far the two go back or how good of friends they are. I’m the newest member so I don’t really have much of a say at this point. The guitarist has been in a project or two with the singer before so I think he’s just riding with this to see where it goes. Also the drummer has secured & is paying for the rehearsal space, which is great but also really kind of entrenches himself in the whole thing.

Here’s the other thing: I’m no pro myself, I am pretty solid and I think that I am good with staying in the pocket and playing to the song but also I’m late 30s and have only been playing a few years. I have played with a few bands for a couple years up until this point and my personal goal is to work with a gigging band (when/if that is ever possible considering the pandemic) but none of these bands actually ended up gigging for one reason or another (pandemic, lack of clear goal to do-so, been-there-done-that, etc). For this reason I don’t have a ton of music connections or opportunities and a lot of working bands understandably see this as a red flag that I don’t have any gigging experience and there are not a lot of 30/40 year old groups that haven’t been playing/gigging for 20 years already. So my only source of connections is hitting up CL & FB musicians-wanted groups.

Is there hope with this project / drummer? Should I cut and run? Can a drummer that is new and has a good attitude but seemingly has no natural rhythm come around in a few months? What would you do in this situation?

You will save yourself a lot of misery if you get out now. Run Forest, run!

 

[bass theory]

Except if they have played for good few years and never got this stage, they arent going to get there now without a massive change.

I had a recent exchange with a drummer who has no feel and groove. He used the supplied kit which needed tuning at least. When i asked him or mentioned it sounded poor (big hint), he said he'd tuned a kit about 3 times in 30 years and didnt know how.
Words failed me, I left them to it

yes, i have to agree at that point he is beyond hope.

 

[kevmac]

Except if they have played for good few years and never got this stage, they arent going to get there now without a massive change.

I had a recent exchange with a drummer who has no feel and groove. He used the supplied kit which needed tuning at least. When i asked him or mentioned it sounded poor (big hint), he said he'd tuned a kit about 3 times in 30 years and didnt know how.
Words failed me, I left them to it

Many years ago I played in a power trio.The drummer was young but had great time and natural talent.He also had a bad attitude.The guitarist and I both worked full time day jobs but his only responsibility was the band.We practiced 4 nights at 6:00 PM so the git player and I could have a bite and get to the early practice and be done by 8 so we had a couple of hours to relax before bed to rise early.Drummer boy went out and got home late but could sleep all day.Guess who was always late for rehearsal?
You can't win.A drummer that can handle the gig and is halfway responsible is rare and worth his or her weight in gold.

 

[chazolson]

I consider myself lucky in that the last three drummers I’ve played with all have time like a metronome. I’m just too old to “fix” a lousy drummer, and don’t think you can, really - not if their time is the issue.

 

[Krakmann]

Salud!

TL/DR: tell the BL it’s the drummer or you, and be prepared to bow out.

I was/am in your situation: VERY green drummer. In the first case, an originals band I really loved, I talked to the band leader because the drummer obviously didn’t cut it for the complex music we played. He said it was very hard to find a drummer, so I left. It still hurts. Recently, in an Elvis tribute, it happened all over again: a very green drummer. This time the music was much simpler, but the guy had no groove nor dynamics nor... VERY green. I sent my ultimatum again and they fired him. There’s no way I was to play onstage with that guy. Yours seems to have the same problem: he just needs more years of practice.