what the audience hears vs what you hear...

[MNAirHead]

Throw alcohol in the mix and a sea of non-musicians - no one really can hear exactly what the bass player is playing.

.

You nailed the truth.

I'm always amazed at how egotistical and self-centered musicians are.

Unless you're Mark King, Jaco or something like this, chances are you're doing more harm than good being a pain in the sound guy's posterior.

This is as brilliant as a guitar guy claiming that "his tone" is a double stack marshall to 10 without an attenuator.

 

[otis_thick]

Actually, ..... It is really trial and error, and trusting your sound guy if you have one.

One thing that helped us was recording ourselves from the audience area (Zoom H4 recorder) and comparing that with what we heard on stage..... .

+++Both the Zoom H2 or H4 work great for referencing stage vs house. The live cilps on our website are from a Zoom H2 or H4 The H2 will do surround. The H4 will allow external mics

 

[pedro]

Should do fine as long as the cab and amp can dish out more lows.

I use a Orange 200 watt tube head and a matching 1x15 cab. One thought I had was to connect my Carvin LS1503 and set it up in front of the stage to help boost the bass out front. Does this sound like a good idea?

You are probably the only band member who might want to change your EQ strategy somewhat. If you have been doing a lot of mid boosting to "cut through" you might want to back that off a little or move it to lower mids instead, and if you have been cutting bass to avoid boom, you might want to boost the bass a little instead if your drivers are up to it.

I’m not sure how that applies to my particular rig. I have gain, volume, bass and treble. I usually set most everything straight up albeit lately I’ve taken the bass down just below half way.

 

[JazznFunk]

I sympathize with the various points being raised regarding stage vs. FOH sound. I was fighting hearing myself and dealing with various stage acoustics for a long time, and I finally took some steps that seem to have worked well. Perhaps these will be helpful to some.

First off, get your amp up off the stage and closer to your ears, or at least tilt the amp so that it isn't just pointing at your knees. Isolating it from the stage and getting the sound UP and OUT go a long way toward 'standardizing' what you hear from your rig, and cleaning up weirdness for the front of house. Regardless of my cab choices on a given evening, I always put 2 Auralex Gramma pads under my cabs. If I'm using a single cabinet (single 2x10 or 1x15), I will put a plank of wood that I cut to the proper length/width under the front edge of the cab to tilt it back. It throws the sound up to my head more and not at the back of my knees. If only our ears were on our knees! haha. I find that this de-couples the amps from the stage enough that it reduces rumble and sympathetic vibrations that would be very amplified if the amp were simply plopped on the stage, and it gives you a 'flatter' palette to work from with regards to EQ'ing to the room.

Second, buy yourself a quality LONG cable... I'm talking 30' or 40'. This gives you enough length to get out in front of the band for soundcheck and during initial setup so that you can hear what your bass sounds like up front. Even if you ONLY use it for soundcheck, I advise having a long cable for just that purpose. The tone freaks will balk at a long cable for any purpose, but you can always swap to a shorter one for the show if that's an issue. A lot of times I find that I sound a lot better than I think out front than standing right next to my amp on stage. In fact, I have a hard time hearing myself sometimes if I'm standing right beside or right in front of my amp.

Regarding stage sound vs. FOH sound, I learned my lesson a long time ago that the stage mix is not always ideal for FOH, both in terms of EQ and volume. There are two situations to consider... The first is where the backline is providing the sound for the entire band onstage and in the room,. If that's the case, you will simply have to turn up your amp more than you normally would in order to accommodate the needs of the sound out front, and the rest of the band will have to adjust and work with you accordingly in order to achieve a proper mix onstage and off. It will be louder onstage than you might want it to be, but again your amp is serving both the stage and FOH sound needs. The second situation is where you have monitors and a good PA and are running your bass to the FOH to be mixed along with everything else. In this case, your amp should be serving only as your stage monitor. Your amp will make very little difference in the overall mix if you're in the house, unless you want to fight the sound guy all night.

The last point to consider is one I fought for a long time. I hate trebly, clanky bass sounds in most cases. BUT, I spent all night fighting a muddy and indistinct mix where my amp was serving as the only bass presence. I adjusted mids, cut lows, boosted volume, etc. and nothing worked. Finally, I adjusted the dreaded treble knob on the bass and amp. I turned the horns off on my cabs and boosted the treble in both places. Eureka! In that situation the treble boost gave me the definition and clarity I lacked, while still being smooth in the overall mix. So, even if it scares you, the treble knobs CAN be your friend in achieving clarity in a muddy mix... just leave the horns off.

 

[greenboy]

I use a Orange 200 watt tube head and a matching 1x15 cab. One thought I had was to connect my Carvin LS1503 and set it up in front of the stage to help boost the bass out front. Does this sound like a good idea?

Not usually. Both cabs, stacked, and angle them so that nobody on stage feels threatened enough by your levels to start turning their amps up more. Stealth it a little and the mix will be the better for it.

I’m not sure how that applies to my particular rig. I have gain, volume, bass and treble. I usually set most everything straight up albeit lately I’ve taken the bass down just below half way.

Add two ears, stir, bring to slow boil, do not overflow? You have a couple knobs to work with, and hand technique ; }

 

[bassyeah]

Greeat discussion...

 

[pedro]

Not usually.

How come?

 

[PBass101]

The last point to consider is one I fought for a long time. I hate trebly, clanky bass sounds in most cases. BUT, I spent all night fighting a muddy and indistinct mix where my amp was serving as the only bass presence. I adjusted mids, cut lows, boosted volume, etc. and nothing worked. Finally, I adjusted the dreaded treble knob on the bass and amp. I turned the horns off on my cabs and boosted the treble in both places. Eureka! In that situation the treble boost gave me the definition and clarity I lacked, while still being smooth in the overall mix. So, even if it scares you, the treble knobs CAN be your friend in achieving clarity in a muddy mix... just leave the horns off.

I found this one out pretty quickly. I have an Ashdown ABM combo amp, and the blue speakers tend on the mellow/indistinct/lacking clarity side when you're just doing the 'thump thump' thing, but after a short while of not being able to hear anything I was playing over drums or guitar and getting really frustrated at their unwillingness to sacrifice "their" sounds and volumes for the good of the band, I disconnected the tweeter, pumped the treble and raised the lower mids slightly, lowered my bass's action and started 'tapping' the strings against the frets with my fingertips to produce a percussive clack ala John Entwistle (no, I'm not suggesting I'm at his level of playing, thank you.)

Anyway, got the deer-in-headlights look at first, but all it took for them to quicky get over it was for me to explain that this was "my" new sound and that I'd only mellow it out if they did the same for "their" sounds. Needless to say, thanks in large part to their stubbornness, you hear can most definitely hear what I'm playing on the bass.

 

[Stumbo]

aside from trusting the soundman or having a wireless unit how can you be sure your stage mix will be what the audience hears/feels?

IME, you cannot do FOH sound from the stage while you're playing.

A wireless is helpful to do FOH because you can go further out in the audience to recheck your FOH sound when the venue is filled as opposed to empty during sound check.

IME, for playing outside with 2 mains on poles, I suggest adding a couple of more PA cabs on stage that angle towards the front/center of the venue. You may also want to provide a separate bass amp for the kick drum or mic it as well.

 

[Rick Auricchio]

Pedro, you asked about using a second amp to boost bass. It's usually a bad idea.

Having two separated bass speakers causes phase issues: some places in the room will get virtually no bass, while others are swamped. You'd have to separate the speakers about 30ft to prevent this problem. Your upper mids will suffer most.

Second, if you're using different size speakers in each cab, there can be unexpected interaction between the speaker responses. Using identical woofers is best to avoid guesswork.

 

[Rick Auricchio]

I know I hear every single note when I go see a band, that's for sure.

But that's just you and me. Of course I hear everything, because I'm paying attention to the song, the chords, the lyrics, and the players. After that there's the equipment choices and the knob settings!

Sadly, much of the audience just hears background music while they're talking.

 

[pedro]

Pedro, you asked about using a second amp to boost bass. It's usually a bad idea.

Having two separated bass speakers causes phase issues: some places in the room will get virtually no bass, while others are swamped. You'd have to separate the speakers about 30ft to prevent this problem. Your upper mids will suffer most.

Second, if you're using different size speakers in each cab, there can be unexpected interaction between the speaker responses. Using identical woofers is best to avoid guesswork.

I know very little about this stuff so pardon the dumb question but how is that different than running the bass thru the PA?

P.S. FWIW, both cabs have 15" speakers in them.

 

[JimmyM]

But that's just you and me. Of course I hear everything, because I'm paying attention to the song, the chords, the lyrics, and the players. After that there's the equipment choices and the knob settings!

Sadly, much of the audience just hears background music while they're talking.

Yeah, for the most part it's true. But they do know when it doesn't sound right. OK, some people have no clue if it sounds right or not, but I think on the average, there is a level of sophistication, even if it's the most basic level.

 

[Korladis]

I found this one out pretty quickly. I have an Ashdown ABM combo amp, and the blue speakers tend on the mellow/indistinct/lacking clarity side when you're just doing the 'thump thump' thing, but after a short while of not being able to hear anything I was playing over drums or guitar and getting really frustrated at their unwillingness to sacrifice "their" sounds and volumes for the good of the band, I disconnected the tweeter, pumped the treble and raised the lower mids slightly, lowered my bass's action and started 'tapping' the strings against the frets with my fingertips to produce a percussive clack ala John Entwistle (no, I'm not suggesting I'm at his level of playing, thank you.)

Anyway, got the deer-in-headlights look at first, but all it took for them to quicky get over it was for me to explain that this was "my" new sound and that I'd only mellow it out if they did the same for "their" sounds. Needless to say, thanks in large part to their stubbornness, you hear can most definitely hear what I'm playing on the bass.

I had this revelation almost immediately when I started playing with serious bands. When playing metal (or even loud hard rock), a "thump thump" bass sound really does not cut it. It gets buried and just turns into background noise.

To cut through (sometimes two) distorted guitars, I turn up the treble a bit, and crank the mids much higher than some might. And then I use only the bridge pickup as long as the guitars are distorted. My bass sound is the height of obnoxiousness by itself (though I like it, personally), but I can definitely always be heard, and with the guitars, it sounds great.

 

[Rick Auricchio]

I know very little about this stuff so pardon the dumb question but how is that different than running the bass thru the PA?.

It isn't. To correct my term "phase," it should more properly be "cancellation." Certain frequencies cancel, which gives the hot spots and dead spots. See [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] for a graphical display of the effect. You can adjust speaker separation, then try different frequencies.

Though many PA systems use cabs on each side of the stage, their bass cabs should not be split. Many PA operators still persist in putting the bass cabs on either side, though. Then they mix from the middle of the audience. Meanwhile, a few feet either side of the mix position, the bass is totally out of whack. A few feet farther and it's OK. This effect repeats across the row.

An example plot from that web site is attached. Even if you don't bother playing with that page, it illustrates the effect.

 

[Rick Auricchio]

But they do know when it doesn't sound right. OK, some people have no clue if it sounds right or not, but I think on the average, there is a level of sophistication, even if it's the most basic level.

Agreed. If the sound is not right, people say "I didn't like the band." Though they mean the sound in the venue, this translates into a general bad review of the band.

Same thing happens with a restaurant. If I order a dish and it isn't prepared the way I expect, I shouldn't say "I went there but didn't like it." The food may be good, just not what I expected. Of course, since people do this all the time, we're fooling ourselves if we expect non-musicians to exercise any better discrimination when hearing music!

 

[JazznFunk]

I had this revelation almost immediately when I started playing with serious bands. When playing metal (or even loud hard rock), a "thump thump" bass sound really does not cut it. It gets buried and just turns into background noise.

To cut through (sometimes two) distorted guitars, I turn up the treble a bit, and crank the mids much higher than some might. And then I use only the bridge pickup as long as the guitars are distorted. My bass sound is the height of obnoxiousness by itself (though I like it, personally), but I can definitely always be heard, and with the guitars, it sounds great.

I'm with you on that, though I tend to me a little more cautious with the mids. I don't play heavy rock though, so that comes down to the needs of the style for sure. I find that sometimes adding more mids without a semi-parametric EQ can get tricky, depending on where the mids are voiced on your amp. In general though I've found that what can seem too trebly or mid-heavy on stage can give just the right 'hair' on your tone to help it pop in the mix.

 

[JazznFunk]

It isn't. To correct my term "phase," it should more properly be "cancellation." Certain frequencies cancel, which gives the hot spots and dead spots. See [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] for a graphical display of the effect. You can adjust speaker separation, then try different frequencies.

Though many PA systems use cabs on each side of the stage, their bass cabs should not be split. Many PA operators still persist in putting the bass cabs on either side, though. Then they mix from the middle of the audience. Meanwhile, a few feet either side of the mix position, the bass is totally out of whack. A few feet farther and it's OK. This effect repeats across the row.

An example plot from that web site is attached. Even if you don't bother playing with that page, it illustrates the effect.

I wish I could print and deliver this to some of the sound techs around here... It would clean up mixes immensely I think.

As an aside, I appreciate your input into discussions like this, Rick. I remember your columns in Bass Player back in the 90s. I haven't subscribed for a long time, but I remember your columns well. Cheers!

 

[Rick Auricchio]

I wish I could print and deliver this to some of the sound techs around here... It would clean up mixes immensely I think.

We'd have to tattoo it to our foreheads. Even then they wouldn't listen.

As an aside, I appreciate your input into discussions like this, Rick. I remember your columns in Bass Player back in the 90s. I haven't subscribed for a long time, but I remember your columns well. Cheers!

Thanks! Most of this speaker stuff I've learned right here on TB from people like Bill Fitzmaurice, greenboy, and the handful of other speaker gurus...whose names I forget right now.

 

[pedro]

It isn't. To correct my term "phase," it should more properly be "cancellation." Certain frequencies cancel, which gives the hot spots and dead spots. See [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] for a graphical display of the effect. You can adjust speaker separation, then try different frequencies.

Though many PA systems use cabs on each side of the stage, their bass cabs should not be split. Many PA operators still persist in putting the bass cabs on either side, though. Then they mix from the middle of the audience. Meanwhile, a few feet either side of the mix position, the bass is totally out of whack. A few feet farther and it's OK. This effect repeats across the row.

An example plot from that web site is attached. Even if you don't bother playing with that page, it illustrates the effect.

But I'm not talking about putting a bass cab on the opposite side of my stage rig. I'm talking about putting an extension cab right in front of me lined up with the PA so as to add some bottom out front without having to turn way up on stage.