what the audience hears vs what you hear...

[greenboy]

But I'm not talking about putting a bass cab on the opposite side of my stage rig. I'm talking about putting an extension cab right in front of me lined up with the PA so as to add some bottom out front without having to turn way up on stage.

Any distance between cabs reproducing low frequencies greater than 1/4 wavlength apart or less than 2 wavelengths, causes destructive cancellations at that/those frequencies. In a situation where both cab sources are receiving roughly equal power, you are at best throwing away SPL at the affected frequencies (ie those with wavelengths corresponding to the distance). At the worst you could have cancallation so deep that in attempt to hear those frequencies the gain gets turned up and drivers are destroyed. Peavey has a tech note up on their site about this, with anedotal description of drivers being destroyed in some cases.

It's thus better to have cabs coupling WITHIN the 1/4-wavelength figure, so that power isn't wasted and is translated into SPL instead of dissipated as heat at the voice coils (or worse).

EDIT: this particular acoustic phenomena is true whether indoors or outdoors.

 

[otis_thick]

How many of you equilize your ear pressure B4 you sound check or play? If you do so, you may notice everything is much louder than you first thought!

I have made it a practice to clear my ears and to get the rest of the band to do so before playing...by holding your nose while your mouth is closed and try to blow out of nose (please do not blow hard will have the op effect or cause damage) You should only have to do this once. Now that you are hearing real volume, its easier to get a good stage mix and the PA will just reinforce that good mix. We also tend to put our cabinets at audience ear level instead of playing into thier feet. AND DON"T STAND IN FRONT OF YOUR CABINET!

 

[PBass101]

I'm with you on that, though I tend to me a little more cautious with the mids. I don't play heavy rock though, so that comes down to the needs of the style for sure. I find that sometimes adding more mids without a semi-parametric EQ can get tricky, depending on where the mids are voiced on your amp. In general though I've found that what can seem too trebly or mid-heavy on stage can give just the right 'hair' on your tone to help it pop in the mix.

I saw this interview with Geddy Lee when he said that you can't have distorted/modulated guitar signals and then just a clean, straight bass signal underneath it. I don't remember exactly which interview it was but he explained that while his bass sounded 'ratty and nasty' on its own, mixed with the rest of the band it just fits. And having seen Rush... Yeah.

Anytime I hear someone on Talkbass explain why you should leave your EQ flat on your bass amp, I assume that they either only ever play soft rock or are in fact guitar players trying to trick bassists out of mix presence.

 

[pedro]

Any distance between cabs reproducing low frequencies greater than 1/4 wavlength apart or less than 2 wavelengths, causes destructive cancellations at that/those frequencies. In a situation where both cab sources are receiving roughly equal power, you are at best throwing away SPL at the affected frequencies (ie those with wavelengths corresponding to the distance). At the worst you could have cancallation so deep that in attempt to hear those frequencies the gain gets turned up and drivers are destroyed. Peavey has a tech note up on their site about this, with anedotal description of drivers being destroyed in some cases.

It's thus better to have cabs coupling WITHIN the 1/4-wavelength figure, so that power isn't wasted and is translated into SPL instead of dissipated as heat at the voice coils (or worse).

EDIT: this particular acoustic phenomena is true whether indoors or outdoors.

Not surprisingly, I'm still confused. How is putting an extension cab up front as described different than running my bass amp thru the PA?

 

[greenboy]

Not surprisingly, I'm still confused. How is putting an extension cab up front as described different than running my bass amp thru the PA?

The main difference often is that the PA has way more power dedicated to low frequencies than the bass rig has for ALL frequencies in total. Thus, as long as the sound person isn't running out of driver or amplifier headroom, he can counter the loss from destructive cancellations somewhat if the distance from source to source isn't underlining key frequencies.

Even so, a good soundguy often will have to work around the bassists somewhat with EQ or repositioning of enclosure, or even suggesting the bassists cut some low end.

IF you don't understand they WHY's I suggest to read the Peavey tech note and maybe that will further illustrate. Otherwise, JUST DO IT - it'll have a positive impact ; }

And that just goes to show why bassists often have sound reinforcement problems that are unique, and knowing the whys or hows can improve one's FOH or degrade it. Some sound engineers will try to hip players to this stuff, others will do what they can silently, while still others will just let ya die on your own rope ; }

Forewarned is forearmed.

 

[MNAirHead]

Anytime I hear someone on Talkbass explain why you should leave your EQ flat on your bass amp, I assume that they either only ever play soft rock or are in fact guitar players trying to trick bassists out of mix presence.

Quite the difference.... This is the point of the thread.

I assume that when I read stuff like this that someone hasn't worked with a good sound crew. They (sound crew) want a clean and naked sound that they can mix togehter into a complete sound... the more it's modified, the more they have to work to get it to balance with another modified.

Much of the "tone" dribble spouted off on TB fights an overall band and the efforts of the sound guy.

Contrary to what we read about "tone," much of this should be left to qualified people who engineer it in the paying crowd.

I can't tell you how many times I've had sound guys (after they know me) ask me to leave my $$$$ gear at home and bring back the bland and predictable gear. It's to the point where one of my most trusted dudes will shake his head "no' if he sees orange speakers.

For some nutty reason bass players try to goof themselves into thinking they're closer to a Guitar player than a Timpani player.

I've had a few TBers ask to play my rackmount system. I commonly tell them it's not worth their time if they want to test "tone" or "sound." this was speced for me by sound engineers. The sound is very naked, very clean, very much like the exact bass I'm playing. Think of it more as showing up 100% naked.

I'm moving more and more to not adding any stage volume with direct boxes and removing floor wedges... my amps and custom cabinets are quickly being unplugged and just becoming stage props.

Much of what we read on this stuff is about how to fake what I have for what someone else has.... its crazy what just swapping a bass will do for your "tone" and how much "tone" that sounds great in the store or wanking in your bedroom doesn't sit in a band mix. Much of the current stuff does not compliment a full band mix sound spectrum (and no.. I'm not saying go old school tubes)

A flat set of tone knobs (or eq gliders) can be fixed in the audience.

I struggled with the band mix issues for years until I played a house gig that I thought I knew inside and out. One night I attended to watch a fill in and fully understood I was full of it and the sound guys were right.

Much of the sound spectrum we play in is not distinguishable.

I'll repeat - many TB threads go on endlessly with the end product of how to make a qualified sound guy's job living hell.

Tim

 

[JimmyM]

You nailed the truth.

I'm always amazed at how egotistical and self-centered musicians are.

Unless you're Mark King, Jaco or something like this, chances are you're doing more harm than good being a pain in the sound guy's posterior.

This is as brilliant as a guitar guy claiming that "his tone" is a double stack marshall to 10 without an attenuator.

Wow, where did that all come from? We're talking about how the audience hears the music and all of a sudden it's egotistical to care about it to want it done a certain way? And that's equal to turning up to 10 on a guitar? I don't think so.

I get paid to micromanage the bass sound. I take that job seriously and I try to use the best tools for the job. And I ultimately can't control what the soundman does but I can control everything up to that point where it goes to him. And I want my sound projected a certain way and I don't want anyone to work against me by insisting I do something I don't think works as well. There are a million different sounds out there and they will all work and nobody really gives a crap how we do it, but that's the way I do it, whether the soundman likes it or not. And a soundman is either with me or against me. And at the end of the day, they'll darn sure care how we do it when the bass sounds so good and they can't help but dance all night because we feel good about our sound.

That said, I've been doing this forever, and I've learned what works best and what doesn't. And you know where I've learned a major part of it? From soundmen. Soundmen are great sources of info. And you're foolish not to listen to them. That's why I can get away with doing the oddball stuff I like to do...I've listened to soundmen and I give them a signal I know they can deal with. And if they can give me a good reason I shouldn't do something, I go along with them.

It ain't ego to want things done right. That's why our band works consistently in a major recession. That and I'm dead sexy in my gold lame bowling shirt

 

[Korladis]

I'm with you on that, though I tend to me a little more cautious with the mids. I don't play heavy rock though, so that comes down to the needs of the style for sure. I find that sometimes adding more mids without a semi-parametric EQ can get tricky, depending on where the mids are voiced on your amp. In general though I've found that what can seem too trebly or mid-heavy on stage can give just the right 'hair' on your tone to help it pop in the mix.

Oh yeah, my rig is EQed completely for the kind of music I'm usually playing through it. If I were playing jazz, for example, I'd probably only bring one of the cabs and have very different EQ settings.

 

[JimmyM]

Quite the difference.... This is the point of the thread.

I assume that when I read stuff like this that someone hasn't worked with a good sound crew. They (sound crew) want a clean and naked sound that they can mix togehter into a complete sound... the more it's modified, the more they have to work to get it to balance with another modified.

Much of the "tone" dribble spouted off on TB fights an overall band and the efforts of the sound guy.

Contrary to what we read about "tone," much of this should be left to qualified people who engineer it in the paying crowd.

I can't tell you how many times I've had sound guys (after they know me) ask me to leave my $$$$ gear at home and bring back the bland and predictable gear. It's to the point where one of my most trusted dudes will shake his head "no' if he sees orange speakers.

For some nutty reason bass players try to goof themselves into thinking they're closer to a Guitar player than a Timpani player.

I've had a few TBers ask to play my rackmount system. I commonly tell them it's not worth their time if they want to test "tone" or "sound." this was speced for me by sound engineers. The sound is very naked, very clean, very much like the exact bass I'm playing. Think of it more as showing up 100% naked.

Well that's how you do it, Tim, and that's a valid approach. For you. I do a complete 180 of that by playing Fenders and micing Ampeg amps, and I use a handful of effects. That's a valid approach for me. Not you. I never get a single complaint about my tone from soundmen, except for my 77 B-15N this one particular soundman I work with regularly doesn't like. Both great ways to do it...both work.

 

[MNAirHead]

So back to the question.

In a perfect world most sound guys do not want you to add to the stage wash mix as what you hear on stage is not what is commonly mixed out in the audience.

Tim

 

[greenboy]

Well that's how you do it, Tim, and that's a valid approach. For you. I do a complete 180 of that by playing Fenders and micing Ampeg amps, and I use a handful of effects. That's a valid approach for me.

I've really never seen it as an issue of particular gear or signal chain, as long as something isn't seriously out of whack in level matching or setup. As far as I'm concerned that's the player's voice, and as long as immutable acoustic principles don't get overlooked or abused, I'm all for making anyone sound as good as I am able. It all works if it ain't broken.

 

[fokof]

Contrary to what we read about "tone," much of this should be left to qualified people who engineer it in the paying crowd.

Aleluia , Amen and all those Religious words.

Your Answer should be a Sticky , Moderators ?????

 

[JimmyM]

Aleluia , Amen and all those Religious words.

Your Answer should be a Sticky , Moderators ?????

Oh, stop congratulating yourselves for being soundmen...it ain't brain surgery

DISCLAIMER: That was a joke.

 

[MNAirHead]

Aleluia , Amen and all those Religious words.

Your Answer should be a Sticky , Moderators ?????

My apologies if I'm going on a long long side step rant on "tone" ... some piece of my expensive gear etc.

I do not know a way that a rational experienced professional can argue the 3 following comments

1-What is on stage is NOT what gramma hears.

2-Anything added on stage has to be addressed in the front of the house.

3-IF given the option, sound guys prefer to delete all stage noise etc.​

It took me years to get over my $$$$ rig.. I now know what a pain stage volume, sound and tone creates for a set of mains.

I just wrote a check that proves my dumb gear was working against the room sound.

Tim

PS.. funny one Jimmy

 

[Gearhead17]

I played a "venue" and the sound on stage was muddy as hell. I still could hear myself, but the tone was just mushy and indistinct. Still had the wicked tube growl and punch coming from behind me. Even though I gave the soundguy my awesome 400+ power tube tone, he still turned my tone into a low end boom with no mids and some clarity on top. Why? because the room had a nasty 200hz-400hz hump throughout. I saw his EQ's and everyone of them had that area of sound nearly gone no matter what he did on stage. So I had the tone I detest most, but the funny part is my dad said he could hear me clearly the whole time. He mentioned my tone had no punch to it, but he did say he could hear me through the chaos of two guitarists and a drummer. Was I to complain? Nah, what's the point? At least they could hear me play.

 

[MIJ-VI]

It really pays off for a band to have it's own sound guy. Even if you are using the venue's PA, you want a guy who is familiar with your band's songs and formats so he can put out the sound you want to the audience.

Yup!

I once saw a band whose sound man was musically invested in the group's efforts by singing a harmony vocal on many of their songs. He was also the act's MC.

That band had a good mix.

--------

Now add in some basic recording duties (so band members can hear for themselves where they need to improve), and maybe a little lyric writing, and I believe that a good argument could be made for expanding a group's line up to include an off-stage member/live producer.

Then there's the prospect of exploiting today's studio-on-a-laptop technology to do frequent live tracking instead of $truggling in a sterile studio.

After a few weeks off, the mixing could commence.

(But then, my muse is up past its bedtime... )

 

[JimmyM]

My apologies if I'm going on a long long side step rant on "tone" ... some piece of my expensive gear etc.

I do not know a way that a rational experienced professional can argue the 3 following comments

1-What is on stage is NOT what gramma hears.

2-Anything added on stage has to be addressed in the front of the house.

3-IF given the option, sound guys prefer to delete all stage noise etc.​

PS.. funny one Jimmy

Thanks Tim! I am a rational experienced professional. The only one I can't argue is #2.

I can argue that if #1 is the case, I want to know why. I see no reason why the sound in the house shouldn't mirror what you're putting out onstage, unless the PA is inadequate. Ya, maybe freqs would need to be cut to work with the bass drum, but I almost always manage to get a very close resemblance unless a soundman just totally steps all over what I'm doing.

As for #3, I have been to many a concert, and I can't recall ever hearing a show where the sound got ruined by amp bleed. OTOH, I have heard a band's sound get totally ruined by guys who put up glass in front of the drums and amps or forced guitarists to turn down their amps to levels that sound like $&17. Soundmen who went to Full Sail and read a lot of manuals may like that kind of thing, but not everyone likes pristine sounds with no bleed whatsoever. And the only soundmen I ever worked with who were that ultra-concerned with bleed made some of the worst live mixes I've ever heard. You don't want to blow out the PA with your amps, but come on...

 

[greenboy]

Ah, gee, doesn't anyone want to argue with ME? <sob, sigh> - I've made a few posts on the subject now... ; }

 

[JimmyM]

Ah, gee, doesn't anyone want to argue with ME? <sob, sigh> - I've made a few posts on the subject now... ; }

How can we argue with you? You believe in tailoring your approach as a soundman to the band and let them hang themselves if they want. I can't argue with that.

 

[greenboy]

How can we argue with you? You believe in tailoring your approach as a soundman to the band and let them hang themselves if they want. I can't argue with that.

Oddly enough, when I think I'm being totally non-controversial, that's often when I catch the most flak.