what the audience hears vs what you hear...

[hasbeen]

hasbeen,

It also brings back the topic of "arrangements" I might have mentioned somewhere today. In some bands with a lot of players, horns, percussion, background vocalist section, guitar, keys, you can pretty much sail right through sounding great and big and really it's effortless. Why? Because the style of arranging even when it gets busy just doesn't have a lot of masking going on. Parts all interlock well and travel in a way that doesn't obscure.

...And then, usually there is only one guitarist in such a band, and he might occasionally use a chimey chording tone instead of a wall of distorted barres ; }

EDIT: Jeez, my long lost bruddah is here!!!

 

[Rick Auricchio]

Arrangements?

Without George Martin's arrangement genius, the Beatles might have been just another band.

 

[Phalex]

The audiance only hears guitar and vocals.

 

[Rick Auricchio]

The audiance only hears guitar and vocals.

That's the worst part of it, unfortunately. Unless the mix is terrible, then they hear the loudest offender.

 

[ryco]

It really pays off for a band to have it's own sound guy. Even if you are using the venue's PA, you want a guy who is familiar with your band's songs and formats so he can put out the sound you want to the audience.

A soundman can really make or break a show. If somebody with ulterior motives wants to mess you up, having his ppl running soundboard is a sure fire way to give your band a crappy presentation. Not to be overly paranoid, but it has happened.

To the OP's question, you just have to trust the guy running sound. If it's a bar it is always a good idea to get them a pizza or something so they'll want to give your band that little extra attention.

If you're running your own sound from an average club stage it's a little trickier. You have to let experience and a good amount of faith kick in. You get everything as close as you can during soundcheck. Use a long chord (or go wireless - which I've never tried), go out front and walk around the club while running the band through a song or two. Once your set, try to stay away from adjusting much - although things do change as more ppl enter the room.
It's nice getting feedback from musician friends coming to watch you. Ask them for an honest assessment of your sound and the band mix.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

Greenboy, yup that's what I was trying to say. Know anybody with any ideas on how to improve the directional characteristics of a bass cab, perhaps while getting better bottom end at the same time??

;o)

 

[greenboy]

Arrangements?

Without George Martin's arrangement genius, the Beatles might have been just another band.

Actually he taught 'em more about chords and such (theory to those who are not afraid of the word) as well, which led to their increased sophistication with songform and arrangement even before his augmentation with extra sections. Really a big force in their continued popularity/advancement.

Which reminds me: next band I get into really has to be more about the music and less about "Hey I'm hard and loud and I play guitar HARD!" ; }

 

[JimmyM]

I'm sorry, but I can't subscribe to the "audience can't hear this and that" business. Audiences are way more sophisticated than they used to be, and there's plenty of people out there who understand the role of each instrument. They may not all understand it, but plenty of people do to where you can't make blanket statements like that. I know I hear every single note when I go see a band, that's for sure.

 

[popinfresh]

Eh, as long as my cab is mic'd I get the jist of my tone through to the audience.

IMO amps play an important role in what the audience hear (not that they'll really notice). Whenever I've gigged I try to get my cab mic'd at least, sound guys never have a problem with it. FOH speakers are designed to be colourless, so I don't see why your basic tone is going to change much. EQ out front is left to the sound guy, I have no problem with that.

Almost every gig i've done with my V8 i've had a complement about my tone from someone in the audience, at most gigs before I moved my mate who is a sound engineer would be in the audience and always told us how it was afterwards.

The way me and the band looked at it. We all worked on a sound that worked together as a band, used the PA to extend it to the audience with little change, and the sound guy to EQ it to the room.

I haven't been to one gig/concert where I haven't heard the tone of the bassists ampeg, ashdown or eden stack out front.

 

[greenboy]

I'm sorry, but I can't subscribe to the "audience can't hear this and that" business. Audiences are way more sophisticated than they used to be, and there's plenty of people out there who understand the role of each instrument. They may not all understand it, but plenty of people do to where you can't make blanket statements like that. I know I hear every single note when I go see a band, that's for sure.

Jimmy, likely some of that is the venues we in more rural parts of the country often frequent. Often small stages, an afterthought, set on odd floorplans with all kinds of reflective impediments like keno machines right in front of part of the 1-foot high, hollow rise. Still I saw a lot of that in Seattle "originals" clubs too, until you got into the bigger rooms.

As for what audiences hear, well, GIGO rules ; } - they can't hear what's being masked, and bands often use big-room SPL in small rooms and boom and sizzle covers all. I'd blame soundmen if I could but it's often that there is no sound engineers and the same backline guitar amps as if one was playing the Palladium. Even older, supposedly seasoned players fall prey to the bigger is better syndrome and have forgotten where they stashed the volume knob ; }

I've always considered the audiences remarkably perceptive, myself, given what they have to deal with : }

 

[pedro]

Greenboy, et al, I’d love to get some advice for those of us who play in bands that don’t have full PA’s or sound men. We play mostly oldies from the 60’s – one band heavily into Motown/Stax the other more into Brit Invasion/pop from the same era. I’d like to say that most of the time we play (or will play) smaller clubs but we’ve played several at a local businessman’s club that was rather large and bright and we now are getting ready to play an outdoor private party. Our PA is 1000 watt Yamaha w/ 2 mains on sticks and we usually run the guitar/keys thru the PA besides the vocals. One band had a rather troublesome guitarist that had a lot of trouble figuring out how to turn down his Twin and tended to drown me out on stage. Hopefully when we find a replacement we’ll loose that particular problem.

Suggestions?

 

[JimmyM]

Jimmy, likely some of that is the venues we in more rural parts of the country often frequent. Often small stages, an afterthought, set on odd floorplans with all kinds of reflective impediments like keno machines right in front of part of the 1-foot high, hollow rise. Still I saw a lot of that in Seattle "originals" clubs too, until you got into the bigger rooms.

As for what audiences hear, well, GIGO rules ; } - they can't hear what's being masked, and bands often use big-room SPL in small rooms and boom and sizzle covers all. I'd blame soundmen if I could but it's often that there is no sound engineers and the same backline guitar amps as if one was playing the Palladium. Even older, supposedly seasoned players fall prey to the bigger is better syndrome and have forgotten where they stashed the volume knob ; }

I've always considered the audiences remarkably perceptive, myself, given what they have to deal with : }

Yes, out there in the Dakotas/Montana/Wyoming run I've played some really weird rooms more suited for horse storage. But it's totally worth it to live out there with that scenery

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

The audience hears a band from the perspective of a stereo recording. My perception is we players hear the sound in monaural. It's right there in our face. Too close for audience perspective. The sound person is crucial to compensate for this difference.

OT: I'm looking forward to the release of the remastered Beatles catalog - esp. the version in mono. Kind of a player's perspective compared to the familiar stereo catalog.

 

[greenboy]

Short of that particular problem you hope to lose, Pedro, I'll suggest that outdoor the bass guitar suffers easily from inadequate backline or PA subwoofers as there is no longer boundary reinforcement / room gain from walls or corners. Make sure you have more cabs and subwoofers than you would use indoors to cover the same area.

Conversely, the midrange and treble oriented stuff tends to sound more open and defined at these types of "garden parties:" because if monitors are being used they aren't making a lot of early reflections off of stage walls and ceiling, so even if they are loud they don't mix with the FOH mains and mush that up so easily. Backline output of the non-bass instruments won't be bouncing all over the place and neither will the output from the PA mains on sticks, so the main thing that can muck things up is guys turning up even more than they usually do or doing some EQ stuff they don't normally do "because I want to make it sound like it does indoors".

Don't let them do that! Easy does it on these kind of gigs. Provided yuo've followed my advice on getting more power/enclosures in the lower range for bass and maybe kick drum and don't run it too hard, it can sound very natural and pleasing. Some of the easiest gigging there is, IMO. Unless someone is trying very hard to be their own worst enemy ; }

Groove and enjoy the sun and the sights and it all practically takes care of itself! : }

 

[JimmyM]

OT: I'm looking forward to the release of the remastered Beatles catalog - esp. the version in mono. Kind of a player's perspective compared to the familiar stereo catalog.

Interesting...I thought the original CD releases were complete botch jobs on the first 4 albums. I hope they fix stuff like that completely annoying splice in "She Loves You" and the odd levels in "You Really Got A Hold On Me."

 

[Michael Vee]

Can you elaborate on that please? I'm not sure what a "narrow footprint" is.

It's the sound you get onstage with a Bag End S15X-D/S15-D stack.

 

[pedro]

Make sure you have more cabs and subwoofers than you would use indoors to cover the same area.

I can add a cab but as I said we don’t have any subs.

Conversely, the midrange and treble oriented stuff tends to sound more open and defined at these types of "garden parties:"

I’m sorry but I’m not sure what that means?

Don't let them do that! Easy does it on these kind of gigs. Provided yuo've followed my advice on getting more power/enclosures in the lower range for bass and maybe kick drum and don't run it too hard, it can sound very natural and pleasing.

You lost me here too.

I guess the gist I’m getting is that if we can keep volume under control (and we kind of have to since the there is a decibel limit by way of the establishment) things should go pretty well.

Groove and enjoy the sun and the sights and it all practically takes care of itself! : }

Will do.

 

[Gearhead17]

I'm sorry, but I can't subscribe to the "audience can't hear this and that" business. Audiences are way more sophisticated than they used to be, and there's plenty of people out there who understand the role of each instrument. They may not all understand it, but plenty of people do to where you can't make blanket statements like that. I know I hear every single note when I go see a band, that's for sure.

Throw alcohol in the mix and a sea of non-musicians - no one really can hear exactly what the bass player is playing. I have to say that Rock Band and Guitar Hero have helped people recognize what instrument is making what sound - but honestly, they are listening to the lyrics more often than not. It's even funnier when I hit TERRIBLY WRONG NOTES at shows and not a person in the audience noticed - except for my bandmates!

Jimmy, you and I are bass players. When we go to shows we listen to everything happening on stage, but we are mainly listening to the bass player. When people that are non-musicians go to a show: it's a toss up if they are listening to the anything in particular. Usually it's just the vocals or the overall band sound, and of course the guitar/bass/vocal solos. Other than that, everyone is generally drinking in excess and could care less about that cool bass player (Jimmy M ) and care more about the hot blonde with way too much clevage Now I play gigs in the crazy college bar and young person world of Chicago/Suburbs. So this is the crowd I deal with. As for soundguys, I give them a direct sound off of my Mesa Head - the sound is directly off the power tubes without any power. Literally the best tone I can give a soundguy besides micing the rig - which they rarely do and have a thousand answers to not do it.

To answer the first post, forget about your tone until you can get your own sound guy. That way you can develop a relationship with this person and he can mic your cab and take a direct signal off the head - one of the better ways to get your tone out to the audience. It may only be certain aspects of your tone that he will get out to the audience - but it's better than getting nothing.

 

[MNAirHead]

Unfortunately TB isn't a good place to get a blanaced opinion on this topic... I've yet to read someone who says cheap starter bass was better than their PBass.

Many folks here wank on about "their tone" .. when it's "the band's overall tone" that matters.

Few TBers will comment that EVERYTHING making noise on a stage screws with the sound guy behind the board and the one taking money out of their paycheck (audience) to insert it into your pocket (band).

The reality is that science can not measure how much an average paying customer does not care about your "tone."

I'm continually amazed at the number of $10k rigs I see behind a $700 PA with a $25 sound guy and the guy jacking the bass is smiling.

TRUE STORY
This weekend I brought my custom rackmount rig to a gig. I only turned on the rack to get LEDs running. I unplugged my floor wedge and descretely put an in ear monitor in - ran the bass direct.. The sound guy was told to keep it private and just snicker. I've been on the mission to get folks to at least try out a $95 hard wire personal monitor system for months.

So the band leader comes over (he took the gig out to observe us play) and says "you finally dialed in your sound" I then took him behind my stuipid rig to show nothing was connected to the amp.

For 95% of players.. in 95% of bands.. the amps get in the way and create more issues than they solve.

When I was on the road, we commonly had dummy cabinets and went direct.

This comes from a guy who has 6 $$$$ rigs - they're fun for me - not for a good sound guy.

'The truth is that most audience members can not care about a bass player's sound until it's overbearing or drops out.

Tim

PS.. to get a truthful and honest answer about this, it should be on a pro sound only forum - not bass player board.

 

[greenboy]

I can add a cab but as I said we don’t have any subs.

Should do fine as long as the cab and amp can dish out more lows. You are probably the only band member who might want to change your EQ strategy somewhat. If you have been doing a lot of mid boosting to "cut through" you might want to back that off a little or move it to lower mids instead, and if you have been cutting bass to avoid boom, you might want to boost the bass a little instead if your drivers are up to it.

I’m sorry but I’m not sure what that means?

It means, what I said right after the part you quoted. Because there is not a lot of walls and stuff for midrnage and treble to bounce off of or get absorbed by, things will be a lot more straightforward and even. It's pretty easy for any guitar or keyboard to use a vanilla EQ setting and sound good in the mix because there are no room effects to counter or confuse issues.

So much of what we hear gigging indoors is the room's influence, and bandmembers and sound engineers often make that even worse by not understanding the room's considerable sway on everything. Get rid of the room and much of this improves if we let it.

EDIT: Just don't let guitars or keys or upper drum micing (if any) overpower the vocals - or the vocalist's perception that they are having to fight to be heard. Then everything is cake.