what the audience hears vs what you hear...

[lorenk]

when I was doing sound at college I always let the band do what they wanted with their amps, then I'd do whatever I needed to do to make it mesh with the house. I figured they should be happy playing (since my school was paying them to play) and then I'd do what I can (which included telling some to turn down) to make it sound good.

This approach worked great...sure sometimes a band hosed themselves (one reggae band comes to mind, the sound was pure deafening bass - the bassist refused to let us run him through the board) but after we got him turned down mid show it definately sounded killer.

So yeah, I can see both sides...and as a sound guy I like it both ways because the same thing over and over gets boring as feces

 

[heinpete]

If I play in smaller Clubs, the bass rig will dominate the sound if played too loud. So in order to avoid that I usually adjust to the bandmates and the sound for the audiance is quite balanced. Of course I never expect the same quality like in our rehearsal room, the accoustics of the clubs are just different and very variable. So far, except some people fancy an individual instrument or the singer, no body complained. The sound set up for a concert hall (last year I played in the Jahrhunderthalle, Frankfurt, Germany) is quite different: The bass rig is completely for band monitoring only, the audience will get everything via PA (my amp has a balanced DI out, post preamp). I have some wedge monitors front stage and a side fill. But these are shared with the other band members, so we have to compromise who will get what signal volume where. However it usually works out well as long as I can follow the lead voice of the song and stay close to the drums. The good accoustics of staggered seating in concert halls usually avoids the early reflection of the bass signal, so the proportion of the PA sound that influences the stage sound remains minimal.

 

[Gearhead43]

Thanks Tim! I am a rational experienced professional. The only one I can't argue is #2.

I can argue that if #1 is the case, I want to know why. I see no reason why the sound in the house shouldn't mirror what you're putting out onstage, unless the PA is inadequate. Ya, maybe freqs would need to be cut to work with the bass drum, but I almost always manage to get a very close resemblance unless a soundman just totally steps all over what I'm doing.

As for #3, I have been to many a concert, and I can't recall ever hearing a show where the sound got ruined by amp bleed. OTOH, I have heard a band's sound get totally ruined by guys who put up glass in front of the drums and amps or forced guitarists to turn down their amps to levels that sound like $&17. Soundmen who went to Full Sail and read a lot of manuals may like that kind of thing, but not everyone likes pristine sounds with no bleed whatsoever. And the only soundmen I ever worked with who were that ultra-concerned with bleed made some of the worst live mixes I've ever heard. You don't want to blow out the PA with your amps, but come on...

+1 big time. This soundman rant sounds like alot of whining to me. Part of being a "soundman" is dealing with stage volume.

What are we expected to all use in-ears, no amps on a bare stage and prance around like The Backdoor Boyz?

Rock n Roll mother****ers!!

 

[pmaraziti]

In my experience, you need to have a good sound engineer and you need to trust him. These elements are not enough to ensure you will sound good to the audience, but are definitely necessary ingredients of the recipe.

Playing wihtout PA is enough only for small gigs (50 pax). When the places starts to get in the medium size (well, I call mid sized the 50-400 range), the chances of having an unbalanced EQ-mix of the band are really high if you don't use a PA IME.

Now as rule my band thinks: the sound has to be good outside, we'll cope with what's on stage. If you have a PA, you can likely get a good sound also on stage by setting up the amp the way you like it. Now it's essential you do this before the soundcheck, and it's also very important that you don't change it after that even if the crowded place has altered what you thought is good. Because of this experience, I also tend to think I don't need huge cabs.

I never played in a 400+ pax venue nor I played outside yet, so please take my experience with a grain of salt.

 

[pmaraziti]

My posting made me think that I would also like to ask you about any secret or idea you have to cope with the following.

When you do soundcheck the room is empty, e.g. no public, but when people come in for the gig the acoustic often changes and what's good before doesn't sound good after.

Is there anything you do to countermeasure effect? I know all rooms are different , all audiences are different etc, so there might be no solution, but if you do something about it , it'd be good to share

 

[JimmyM]

My posting made me think that I would also like to ask you about any secret or idea you have to cope with the following.

When you do soundcheck the room is empty, e.g. no public, but when people come in for the gig the acoustic often changes and what's good before doesn't sound good after.

Is there anything you do to countermeasure effect? I know all rooms are different , all audiences are different etc, so there might be no solution, but if you do something about it , it'd be good to share

I do nothing, because the people coming in almost always result in a great improvement. Sometimes I might turn up...that's about the only adjustment I make.

BTW, even though I advocate using a PA whenever possible, I have done many a large gig with stage volume and a vocals only PA, some as large as 1000 people, and it sounded great anyway. Sometimes I've even preferred it to a PA. Not that I disagree with using a PA, but you can do way larger gigs without PA if everyone's rigs are up to the task.

 

[MNAirHead]

My posting made me think that I would also like to ask you about any secret or idea you have to cope with the following.

When you do soundcheck the room is empty, e.g. no public, but when people come in for the gig the acoustic often changes and what's good before doesn't sound good after.

Is there anything you do to countermeasure effect? I know all rooms are different , all audiences are different etc, so there might be no solution, but if you do something about it , it'd be good to share

If you've EQd the room and blananced the levels... and using a PA with "headroom" the only major change should be a bit more volume from the PA.

IF you have fancy equipment sometimes a $$$$ real time (sound spectrum) analyzer will suggest an EQ tweek.

When in doubt, you're best off trusting your sound check.

 

[modulusman]

I do nothing, because the people coming in almost always result in a great improvement. Sometimes I might turn up...that's about the only adjustment I make.

BTW, even though I advocate using a PA whenever possible, I have done many a large gig with stage volume and a vocals only PA, some as large as 1000 people, and it sounded great anyway. Sometimes I've even preferred it to a PA. Not that I disagree with using a PA, but you can do way larger gigs without PA if everyone's rigs are up to the task.

And you know it sounds great how? Were you standing out in the middle of the crowd during the show? Playing for a thousand people with a vocals only PA sounds like a recipe for failure to IMO.

 

[MNAirHead]

This is a current topic in my todo list as I have a huge issue of what I'm hearing is not what the audience is hearing.

I've brought in real time analyzers and spectrum analyzers to rip the problem apart.... the gear has demonstrated what's on stage is not what gramma hears.

This is the summary of some suggested reading and playing.



Arraying Loudspeaker Systems
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BOUNDARY CANCELLATION
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Sound Wave Interference Applet Software
http://www.falstad.com/interference/index.html


Thanks for the suggested reading - hope the links help someone

-Tim

 

[greenboy]

the gear has demonstrated what's on stage is not what gramma hears.

He77 - what gramma hears ain't even the same as what gramps is hearing only 25 feet away so it's amazing how few realize that what's on stage changes for listening positions. The drummer isn't hearing what the keys guy is, etc. There's a plethora of listening positions within a venue that "sound different" from each other.

As a sound engineer usually you can only shoot for what best averages out in the positions that are key. Thus, the narcissism of the "my tone" people gets foiled no matter what, in quite a few different variations ; } ...it's really about The Mix.

 

[MNAirHead]

Greenboy..

Any adivice?

I have a session gig with a guy who "only plays Mr Z amps (have icelandic hemp speakers or some nuttiness), custom shop telecasters ( 1 piece body dug up from some Mississippi swamp with pickups hand wired by reincarnated angels)... cables that are made from first geration plutonium etc.

The challenge is that the room we play has a funky mid-range SPL (sound pressure) issue that makes basses sound like they're bowed.. everything in the midrange is compressed and washed together.... it's not loud.. it almost feels like some military torture thing with white noise.

Unfortunately the guitar guy is fighting for his "tone" that screws up our "tone"

One of the smarter sound guys on this board suggested a $95 gamble on a Rolls PM351 and disconnect my floor monitor... .. just this alone increased the audience sound by a noticable ammount.... I hired a replacement so I could hear what it sounded like when he played with a DI box only - removed his floor wedge and amp.. made the boy put on some head cans.

Guitar guy is VERY cool.. VERY smart.. unfortunatley the only way to hear this is to sit out a gig and hear what they're talking about.

I've spent hours on this isssue on the phone, books, etc. Met a top notch guy at a Casino - he opened my eyes when he pointed out that none of the amps on stage were plugged in - they were vox stage props.. everyone was DI after a Pod type device.

On stage it sounds 100% different than in the house.

Are there any tricks to eek out sound into a band mix?

 

[Rick Auricchio]

I have a session gig with a guy who "only plays Mr Z amps (have icelandic hemp speakers or some nuttiness), custom shop telecasters ( 1 piece body dug up from some Mississippi swamp with pickups hand wired by reincarnated angels)... cables that are made from first geration plutonium etc.

...capacitors rolled on the thighs of virgins...

 

[JimmyM]

And you know it sounds great how? Were you standing out in the middle of the crowd during the show? Playing for a thousand people with a vocals only PA sounds like a recipe for failure to IMO.

Well sometimes you have no choice. And yes, that's exactly what I do when I have to do it that way...during soundcheck I go out into the audience seating with a wireless and listen in a few positions, and I adjust accordingly. And if I can, I'll hop down during the actual show a couple times to check it out as well. It ain't for amateurs, but it ain't brain surgery either.

 

[vinxbass]

Most gigs I play today do not have a soundman, but recently I watched a video of my band playing an outdoor gig with full PA and the bass was DI'd. My Jazz sounded just like it does coming thru my amp, I was surprised by how good it sounded. It just proved to me what they say about a Fender, it's a plug in and play instrument that doesn't need alot of EQ'ing.

 

[otis_thick]

Oh, stop congratulating yourselves for being soundmen...it ain't brain surgery

DISCLAIMER: That was a joke.

Remember they are sculpting AIR and that aint easy!

 

[MNAirHead]

Most gigs I play today do not have a soundman, but recently I watched a video of my band playing an outdoor gig with full PA and the bass was DI'd. My Jazz sounded just like it does coming thru my amp, I was surprised by how good it sounded. It just proved to me what they say about a Fender, it's a plug in and play instrument that doesn't need alot of EQ'ing.

The reality of "sound" is that most people "hear" a band smiling and having a great time.. making eye contact.. interacting (tastefully) with people etc.

Brittney Spears is probably the best demonstration of what is "heard" on stage is not what is "heard" in the audience. I'm still floored at the ticket sales to the Circus tour.

Any of us who have owned a Sadowsky etc are often amused that the crowd guitar guys hear a Fender copy.

T.

 

[pedro]

The reality of "sound" is that most people "hear" a band smiling and having a great time.. making eye contact.. interacting (tastefully) with people etc.

Brittney Spears is probably the best demonstration of what is "heard" on stage is not what is "heard" in the audience. I'm still floored at the ticket sales to the Circus tour.

Any of us who have owned a Sadowsky etc are often amused that the crowd guitar guys hear a Fender copy.

T.

I'm not sure I understand the last two paragraphs.

 

[lindseyp]

The audiance only hears guitar and vocals.

Fire the FOH. That's never the case when I run sound, and I'm not a pro.

 

[alexclaber]

Key things for me are accepting the acoustics and working with them, not fighting them, balancing the stage sound and FOH sound through good mix of backline, monitor and FOH output and trying to use gear with relatively even polar response (so 2x10 or 2x12 guitar combos should be turned on their side).

When you do all this you can get pretty consistent sound both on and off-stage with pretty cheap gear.

It does require the whole band and the sound engineer to really work together, no prima donnas!

Alex

 

[pedro]

Maybe I should start a separate thread but I'd really like to hear more about balancing stage volume/mix w/ FOH when there is no (or little) PA support. Some of us are just not playing places that have full PA support.