What's so special about John Entwistle?

[dramatwist]

...if you don't like The Who and John Entwistle, don't listen to them... you're not going to convince anyone who appreciates them to change their views... you're just ranting... many of us would appreciate you getting your facts straight as well... (this applies not to the previous posting, but to various posts in this thread...)

 

[Nickweissmusic]

I'm not the biggest rock fan out there, but I can see why people like John Paul Jones, John Deacon, Geezer Butler and the likes.

I can even see why people like Cliff Burton, although I think he's seriously overrated.

But I don't understand why John Entwistle is so highly regarded here on TalkBass and in the media. I listened to The Who's top songs on Spotify and watched a few videos on YouTube. Sure, he has that sort of tapping technique and a few fills on "My Generation," but is that it? I guess he did come before Jones et al., making him a pioneer?

I'm being serious here. I'm not trolling. What am I missing?

I think Entwhistle's own quote on his own playing was, "The Who haven't a proper bass player." They didn't have a proper drummer either, so it works out I guess. He treated his bass parts like an expressive layer of music, and not a "bassline" per se, so those who prefer a more steady, repetitive groove, wouldn't find him to be their cup of tea. I'd say Bizarro Ox from the same era would be Duck Dunn. I happen to really enjoy the Who (and the MG's for that matter), but what their original rhythm section did was far from textbook. He did have a lot of facility, and was extremely creative on the instrument, and was in one of the greatest rock bands of all time until his passing, so I think "great" easily qualifies for the Ox. If you care to listen deeply, there's a lot of interesting stuff going on, if you're just not that into the Who, so be it.

 

[dramatwist]

 

[Briton]

Yep. P-Basses have a chit-ton of overtones. Especially with the right strings.

I don't think it had anything to do with any of those things as John stated that the slab Precisions that made up Frankenstein had a sound of their own more raunchy and more growl than a regular P Bass. I guess that's why it sold for £62k at Sotheby's

 

[DJ Bebop]

 

[Kink Rimson]

I would get them tested mate!

Quote from April 1994 Bassist interview
Which sound was responsible for that amazing sound on Won't Get Fooled Again?
"That was Frankenstein, which I made from dead parts. I had a day off in San Francisco once and spent it screwing a bass together from five smashed Precisions including a couple of slab ones of which they only made about 20. I took the pickup and scratch plate from one of the slab Precisions, the neck from another, machineheads from a Jazz Bass, the body off a sunburst Precision and the tailpiece from another. The slab Precisions were like white, squared-off Telecasters, with a split pickup, a maple neck, black scratch plate and what looked like blue veins coming through the white paintwork. I don't know what they used on them but those basses had a sound of their own, really raunchy with more of a growl than a regular Precision. I have about 35 Precisions, all with different colours and from different eras, but I always go back to Frankenstein.

"I used Frankenstein through Hiwatts for the whole of 'Tommy', 'Live At Leeds' and 'Who's Next' but by 'Quadrophenia' and Who By Numbers I was playing Gibson Thunderbirds. I felt I was getting stuck in a rut, using all the treble.

I'm familiar with that interview. Entwistle could've been wrong, of course...

WGFA could very well be a Precision, but the rest of Who's Next? Never. Completely different tone to Frankenstein, or indeed any Precision.
Again - listen to the isolated bass clip I posted. You can debate whether or not it's a Thunderbird (I'm certain it is), but there is no way it's a Precision.

Quadrophenia:



Who's Next:



Same bass.

For comparison, Frankenstein:

 

[Briton]

I'm familiar with that interview. Entwistle could've been wrong, of course...

WGFA could very well be a Precision, but the rest of Who's Next? Never. Completely different tone to Frankenstein, or indeed any Precision.
Again - listen to the isolated bass clip I posted. You can debate whether or not it's a Thunderbird (I'm certain it is), but there is no way it's a Precision.

Quadrophenia:



Who's Next:



Same bass.

For comparison, Frankenstein:

Well obviously you know better than John himself, and to say that John himself might be wrong is just crazy. John explained that the slab body P Basses were different than regular P Basses having more growl and sounding more raunchy, so that is were you are getting confused You can post as many audio clips as you want but you won't change the fact that "ALL" of Who's Next was recorded using his Frankenstein P Bass. So it is time to move on and accept the fact that you are wrong, but I understand why you think that it does not sound like your standard P Bass which it doesn't. So Sea and Sand from Quad is a Thunderbird and Going Mobile and My Gen live are his Frankenstein

 

[DJ Bebop]

I'm familiar with that interview. Entwistle could've been wrong, of course...

WGFA could very well be a Precision, but the rest of Who's Next? Never. Completely different tone to Frankenstein, or indeed any Precision.
Again - listen to the isolated bass clip I posted. You can debate whether or not it's a Thunderbird (I'm certain it is), but there is no way it's a Precision.

Quadrophenia:



Who's Next:



Same bass.

For comparison, Frankenstein:

One must remember, there's a difference between live and studio recording.

 

[Nickweissmusic]

He was being humble. That's part of why he's so great. There's no single way to play an electric bass. It's a fairly new instrument. John Entwistle broke away from the mold but there's still an evolution going on.
Some people may not get it but JE was doing amazing things on the bass guitar. Period.

Agreed, he was definitely saying that with humor, and acknowledging that he wasn't trying to fill the traditional role of bass player.

 

[Skokiaan]

It's not just the lead parts. He built very beautiful / challenging / groovy support lines.
This song has all these characteristics together.

It's not Entwistle on this track. This is Elton John's band with Dee Murray on bass.

 

[Kink Rimson]

Well obviously you know better than John himself, and to say that John himself might be wrong is just crazy. John explained that the slab body P Basses were different than regular P Basses having more growl and sounding more raunchy, so that is were you are getting confused You can post as many audio clips as you want but you won't change the fact that "ALL" of Who's Next was recorded using his Frankenstein P Bass. So it is time to move on and accept the fact that you are wrong, but I understand why you think that it does not sound like your standard P Bass which it doesn't. So Sea and Sand from Quad is a Thunderbird and Going Mobile and My Gen live are his Frankenstein

Well obviously you know better than John himself, and to say that John himself might be wrong is just crazy. John explained that the slab body P Basses were different than regular P Basses having more growl and sounding more raunchy, so that is were you are getting confused You can post as many audio clips as you want but you won't change the fact that "ALL" of Who's Next was recorded using his Frankenstein P Bass. So it is time to move on and accept the fact that you are wrong, but I understand why you think that it does not sound like your standard P Bass which it doesn't. So Sea and Sand from Quad is a Thunderbird and Going Mobile and My Gen live are his Frankenstein

Aw, don't be like that! This is a good debate! What did you think of the clips I posted - could you hear the similarities?
As for John's fallibility, well he was only human after all. He did own and play a vast amount of gear over the years. In this instance my ears disagree with what he said in that particular interview, that's all.

 

[bobyoung53]

I saw him twice in small clubs during the early 2000's with the John Entwistle Band. Once in Worc, MA and the next night in Prov, RI. I had never realized that he was a very light player, his attack was almost like a butterfly's wings touching the strings especially when he would do triplets, I think he let the volume of his amps do the work. In Worcester in a 100 seat club his whole band had stacks and he had a huge rack with speakers up to the ceiling, He had power amps and preamps, I believe Trace Elliot although I'm not sure. He had big and small cabs stacked to the ceiling behind him. The band was loud but sounded so clear and good it did not hurt your ears. The club's electrical system did not like it though and Entistles rig tripped the circuit breakers several times during their performance, once in the middle of his solo which was REALLY good. The next night in Prov they had about half the stuff in a bigger club (The Call), the band sounded much better in Worcester though with their full complement of gear (Sir Morgan's Cove). I had brought my younger brother to the Worc concert and John was flicking picks out at the audience and one he flicked hit my brother in the chest and landed in his folded hands. He says look! Boris the Spider was one of the standouts, I do believe they did Can You See The Real Me. The drummer did most of the singing IIRC. Anyway Entwistle was a pioneer who worked with Rotosound during the mid 60's for the round wound string sound. He sounded good no matter what bass he used, I like his P bass period the best, "Live at Leeds" for example is unbelievable, I remember buying that album on 8 track. He could overplay and occasionally be sloppy but I've only seen that during rehearsal clips in which he looked bored as hell, but overall he was a great player who really put bass in the spotlight along with McCartney during the 60's although of course McCartney was first. I believe entwistle wrote part of the book on electric bass.

 

[bobyoung53]

There are a few players who have herculean finger style. Rocco, Cliff and Ox would probably be on that mount Rushmore with whomever you wanted to add. Those three were not only deft but aggressively brutal. It's one thing to play finger style ( my preferred method and Funk is my prefer vehicle ) and quite another to attack the strings in that manner. Geddy is up there as well. You can hear the strings bending to their wills.

That and I love his choice of notes. He's busy but he's a superb conversationalist musically speaking.

IMO of course.

Yes, he wrenched the sound out of those basses, love what he did with a P bass (best sound for me) and he had a light touch at least when i saw him play.

 

[bobyoung53]

Back in the 80s when I was starting out I remember this blowing me away. Skip ahead to 1:55

This was also always one of my favorite Entwistle tracks, finesse with a GREAT sound, he wrenched the sound out of his basses.

 

[Briton]

Aw, don't be like that! This is a good debate! What did you think of the clips I posted - could you hear the similarities?
As for John's fallibility, well he was only human after all. He did own and play a vast amount of gear over the years. In this instance my ears disagree with what he said in that particular interview, that's all.

Nice try again buddy but you are still totally wrong.I know it hurts your pride to be totally wrong as a Who fan, but you have just got to suck it up my friend, but don't worry you'll get over it as Londoners always do as long as you are from the West.

 

[EddiePlaysBass]

This thread is costing me money.

I ordered the The Best Live At Yokohama DVD.
I will pre-order the Ox biography tomorrow probably.
I almost bought the deluxe edition of the Left For Live album. Again. Turns out I already have it...

Incidentally, the best track on it (IMHO, and from a songwriting / standout cos it's different POV) is from the Van Pyres album, so now I am looking for that one, too...

 

[bobyoung53]

He was really the first rock guy - followed very quickly by Chris Squire - who refused to sit in the back of the bus. There were four guys in that band, every last one essential to making it work, and Entwistle wasn't EVER going to let you overlook that he was one of them.

Entwistle and Squire were really the first trebly bass players who stood out but Mccartney was playing lead bass way before either of those two, Mccartney was the first one.

 

[bobyoung53]

Part of the problem with Wyman is that, Keef played far more of the bass parts than most people know and as far as I am concerned, Keef is a better bass player.

OT but I don't understand all the Wyman bashing that is going on here especially in an Entwisle thread, Bill was first and foremost a BLUES and Chuck Berry type player at which he excelled. Keith is a very good bass player also and there are numerous examples so I won't post one but the real star bass player in that band is Ron Wood although he is about as far from being a blues player as you could get and his playing doesn't fit the Stones as well as Wyman's or Richard's does but I've always thought he was at least as good on bass as he is on guitar. This from a LONG time Stones fan, got their first album in 1964 for Christmas.

Bill Wyman from 1964:







Ron Wood bass, this from 1969 listen especially at about 3:00

 

[Kink Rimson]

Nice try again buddy but you are still totally wrong.I know it hurts your pride to be totally wrong as a Who fan, but you have just got to suck it up my friend, but don't worry you'll get over it as Londoners always do as long as you are from the West.

No pride here, just opinion! What did you think of the clips I posted?

 

[Kink Rimson]

OT but I don't understand all the Wyman bashing that is going on here especially in an Entwisle thread, Bill was first and foremost a BLUES and Chuck Berry type player at which he excelled. Keith is a very good bass player also and there are numerous examples so I won't post one but the real star bass player in that band is Ron Wood although he is about as far from being a blues player as you could get and his playing doesn't fit the Stones as well as Wyman's or Richard's does but I've always thought he was at least as good on bass as he is on guitar. This from a LONG time Stones fan, got their first album in 1964 for Christmas.

Bill Wyman from 1964:







Ron Wood bass, this from 1969 listen especially at about 3:00

I love that second Beck album. Fantastic bass tone.