What's so special about John Entwistle?

[mb94952]

I just noticed that tiny writing in your post says Cliff Burton is overrated. I don't think so. Have you seen that Some Kind Of Monster movie where they're auditioning new Bass players and Robert Trujillo got hired cuz he was the only on out of all those big name bass players that could play Cliff's bass lines. People don't realize how hard it is to play fast and play it right. Like if I'm listening to Slayer some people say turn that crap off, it's garbage anybody could play that. So, I say go ahead try and play it, see how far you get.

I know it's off topic for this thread, so I apologize to the staff. Have you heard how DIFFICULT it is to play some of the metal stuff ? I can't think of any band names in general because it's not my scene but Thundertips is on point. Some of that stuff is humanly impossible, but they not only do it, but the band sounds like one instrument, they're SO tight. Metal has always been compared to classical because unlike jazz, it takes precision.

 

[Thundertips]

I know it's off topic for this thread, so I apologize to the staff. Have you heard how DIFFICULT it is to play some of the metal stuff ? I can't think of any band names in general because it's not my scene but Thundertips is on point. Some of that stuff is humanly impossible, but they not only do it, but the band sounds like one instrument, they're SO tight. Metal has always been compared to classical because unlike jazz, it takes precision.

I agree. Sorry, I didn't realize it was off topic cuz he said that about Cliff Burton in little tiny letters when he started the thread.

 

[Rob Martinez]

John Entwistle is a giant among rock bassplayers. I am not a big fan of Geddy Lee, but I recognize that he is a huge influence and a major player, and I cannot play as good as he does. So I show a LOT of respect for Geddy Lee. When you can play better than Entwistle, you can make ridiculous comments about him.

 

[dr doofie]

Yeah , he doesnt get the recognition he deserves! I think his bass tracks seem buried in the mixes of the Who stuff,b/c Townsend & moon. waaay back when I started I knew he was good, but nothing stood out to me like Geezer & squire did for me,YMMV.
Luckily when I took lessons, My teacher was a big fan of him & Sly Stone (Larry Graham)! so I got exposed to players I normally would avoid. so early on I was treated to learn My generation & Thank you. That seriously influenced my right hand technique!! I didnt know anything about Slap back then! I always considered myself very heavy(right) handed though, I never realized how he influenced me until fast forward to 5 years ago, at a gig with thecover band I played in were jamming through our setlist, we had the place rocking and during the first break, a dude comes up to me and says "Wow! You really like the Who! huh?" I was a little caught off guard, cause i 'm not and we only play my generation, but he said it like it was a compliment. so I agreed sheepishly hoping he wasn't gonna get all fan boy on me. Plus I hate when people cant take a compliment! I knew Entwistle was a monster & was flattered, acknnowledged it & said thank you. He stared at my bass the whole time!

As A side note upon learning "slap" early in my training. I learned to smack my strings very hard with my plucking fingers, accenting notes like thumb slapping, but with fingers. I really developed this "Style" after watching a video on getting Geddy lee's tone. To Quote the Video " Dig in hard, He plays very hard." I really wanted Geddy's tone so I adapted this suggestion to my style. Not bragging just saying, I beat the heck out of my fingers, frets & strings! I dont really hear geddy or entwistle when I play, But I have gotten many compliments on my tone. People Usually approach me staring at my gear (nothing that special, but I take it as a compliment!
After that gig & that compliment (I think). I naturally started doing that heavy handed playing thing more often. and after watching more Entwistle videos & that Ox movie that was on netflix. I realize I really adopted his style accidently through osmosis rather than having been a big fan!?! I thank my old bass teacher for turning me on to players & styles I probably would've ignored (I was more influenced by guitar players back then). though I can understand why he isnt more appreciated!
When I was 1st getting into playing music Keith Moon had just died so all the Who acclaim went to him, But I do remember an Interesting "Heated" argrument in class, of who was better?(the Who vs. Led Zeppelin) Daltry vs Plant, Ox vs JPJ, Townsend vs. Page, and Bonzo vs. Moon, almost started a riot, Bonzo had died a earlier! I think Zeppelin won b/c the upper classmen were bigger/smarter!( I sided with Zeppelin, but the Who fans made great arguments for them!
Sorry about the long post. I've been cooped up for days!

I "learned" this technique (your side note) in a similar fashion, kinda like, "well, I can't break the thing..."
I thought I was doing something new and wrong and then realized Steve Harris from Maiden's been playing the exact way since the 70's.
Even when I was wrong, I was "right"...

 

[retslock]

Whatever you think of his style and technique - I was around when he came on the scene back in the '60s and no-one played bass like he did back then. He was a ground breaker in that era. His bright round wound sound, his attack and note choices were singular and stood out like the proverbial. It was a new way to play bass, like nothing we had heard before and it changed bass playing forever. Sometimes one player can make a seismic shift in the way we do things. Louis Armstrong did it, Charlie Bird did it, Larry Graham did it and Jaco did it too.

 

[BassBrass]

Louis Armstrong did it, Charlie Bird did it, Larry Graham did it and Jaco did it too.

Charlie Bird is a famous restaurant in NYC, Charlie Byrd (who I thought you meant) was a great jazz guitarist, and Miles Davis did it 4 times. You meant Charlie Parker, right, aka "Bird"? Bird lives. Charlie Parker was a big country music fan, you know. From Kansas City. He went for content where ever he found it, and in country it was in the stories. In the Who it would have been the songwriter (who came up with the melodies) and the performance including Entwistle's flair, astonishing technique and sound, aka "horrible", see above

 

[retslock]

Charlie Bird is a famous restaurant in NYC, Charlie Byrd (who I thought you meant) was a great jazz guitarist, and Miles Davis did it 4 times. You meant Charlie Parker, right, aka "Bird"? Bird lives. Charlie Parker was a big country music fan, you know. From Kansas City. He went for content where ever he found it, and in country it was in the stories. In the Who it would have been the songwriter (who came up with the melodies) and the performance including Entwistle's flair, astonishing technique and sound, aka "horrible", see above

Correct, that's who meant. My error. Brain fade. Thanks. I'll go back and correct it if I still can.......nope, too late.

 

[BassBrass]

Correct, that's who meant. My error. Brain fade. Thanks. I'll go back and correct it if I still can.......nope, too late.

oh never mind everyone in NY knew who you meant. Warm up with 2 masters

 

[Kink Rimson]

I didn't know he ever used a pick........ but then i've never really known that much about his playing.

I reckon he was equal pick/fingers back in the day, using a lot of palm muting. When he developed his later typewriter technique the pick took a bit of a backseat.
It's a shame his pick technique gets overshadowed as he was a magnificently precise and aggressive pick player.

 

[EddiePlaysBass]

I got the Entwistle bass book, but never really learned any songs... High time I dig it up and get to work!

On a side note, thanks to this thread I am going to order his bio

 

[Kink Rimson]

His sound on all of "Who's Next" is my all-time favorite "P-Bass-with-roundwounds" sound. Fat and compressed, with only a HINT of the "piano strings" thing. Lots of sustain.

Who's Next was a Gibson Thunderbird. WGFA might have been a Precision but the recording is inferior to the rest of the album and it's difficult to tell.

 

[Briton]

Obviously for me he is "The Greatest Bass Guitarist" ever!. Everything has been said in this thread on what John has done for the instrument, and how he brought it to the forefront. And it wasn't just Townshend and Moon who smashed their gear, John too broke many Basses live on stage......Photo courtesy of Kim Gottlieb-Walker.

 

[GIBrat51]

Entwistle was in a unique band situation. A band that had a drummer, guitar player and singer that were all quite terrible at their roles musically but all good at putting on a show. That's why there is excessive volume, laser shows, smashing instruments etc.

Someone had to hold that together musically, he had training so it fell to him really. That why he played so many damn notes, he was covering for the rest of the band.

He needed volume, so more powerful amps. He needed clarity, so sought a way to make that happen, he was all about more treble. He was instrumental in the development of the round wound string.

Am I a fan, no I am not, I hate his twangy sound, it was his bass version of Duan Eddy. But I do appreciate the difficult nature of being in a band of average musicians when you are trying to make a living out of it. I think he overcame his challenges in that band, cemented his place in rock history and have people idolize him.

And to those that think I haven't listened enough.

I heard The Who my whole life. My dad is an extreme fan of late 60's and early 70's music so plays it a lot, always Beatles, the Who, Hendrix, Dylan, Zappa, Led Zeppelin etc. The difference is I don't have nostalgia attached to it, I listen to it all, if it's good it's good, if it's bad it's bad, if it's overrated it's overrated.

I'd have to agree. I was fortunate enough to see and hear both the Who and the Rolling Stones, when they were London house bands; the Beatles in the Cavern Club; and a bunch of other Brit Invasion bands before they got big (yeah, sometimes it's nice to be a GI brat...). John Entwhistle was having to make up for a lot of flaws in the rest of the band. And, yes; they were Gawdawful loud, too. As a band? The Stones, and especially the Beatles, could play rings around the Who. But, I'll have to agree; as an individual player? The Ox was most definitely the stuff....

 

[AlvarHanso]

Yes Keith Moon and Pete Townsend are terrible.

A drummer that can barely keep time, has a massive kit only for show and to store towels on. The bit about his kit is from an interview with him that I read.
By his own admission he barely knows how to play the highhats.

A guitar player in the golden age of guitar heroes that can barely string a solo together, yes terrible when compared to his contemporaries.

Listen to Quadrophenia. You are talking nonsense. You also belittle the genius of Townshend as an innovator of synthesizers as a lead instrument and as a rhythm track. He was ahead of everyone in rock or pop music on that, and his demos made at his apartment and later garden shed are better than 90% of albums released in the 60s and 70s.

If you listen to Summertime Blues or Shakin' All Over and don't think they can play rudimentary rock, I don't know what to tell you.

Keith Moon didn't have a practical use for a hi-hat and ditched it from 1964-73, and only used it for Bell Boy. He did indeed use most of that massive drum kit, as evidenced by plenty of videos from the time period, as well as actually listening to the different sounds of his fills on record. Is he unconventional? Absolutely! Is he he the garbage drummer that Townshend says now? Absolutely not. Billy Cobham watched Keith at a drum clinic and said, "I don't know what you're doing, but keep doing it!" Billy Cobham is a pretty good drummer. Most everybody agrees Neil Peart was a great drummer, and his hero was Moon. Bonham's hero was Moon. Ginger Baker hated him, but he hated everybody. You obviously don't like The Who, that's fine, but saying they're crap musicians is wrong on many levels.

And a general addition to this thread, much has been mentioned about the large stacks of amps, but he started the very first small stack as well. Once Moon joined the band, he got a second 50W Marshall, and Townshend got another one, then Entwistle got 2 100W amps, as did Townshend, and the volume war's great casualty was Roger Daltrey who forever screamed at Entwistle to turn down. At one show in 1975, disgusted by having already turned down to satisfy him, when Daltrey yelled at him to turn down again, he took his bass off and slung it to the stage and told him to play it. And in 1989, when Daltrey convinced Townshend to take The Who back out with Tommy, Townshend's audiologist told him it couldn't be above 90db onstage, and Daltrey said, they'd just turn down. And Townshend had to explain that if they turned Entwistle down, they'd lose all the harmonics coming from his rig that had reinforced the sound for so long. So they hired a big brass band and strings to do the tour to fill in that sound. Luckily, Townshend's hearing improved in later years and IEM helped him.

And also, there's this about 4:12 in:

 

[AlvarHanso]

It was no secret that the vast majority of the music was worked out and organized by Entwistle.
Entwistle was far more than just the bass player. He was also their arranger and scored a lot of the parts that had to be played by session guys.

Doubling down, he also PLAYED most of the horn work on their tunes throughout their career.

It was a major coup when he agreed to join the band.

There's more than a few interviews where every member of the band basically admits Keith wasn't really there and often had to be re-taught how to play his own songs.

Pete had to rely heavily on Shel Talmy for a lot of his work. So much so that Shel basically took over Track records because Pete couldn't produce himself out of a paper bag.

This is just all wrong. Track Records was owned by Kit Lambert and Chris Stamp who took over The Who's management and got them out of their contract (in a worse deal) with Talmy. Entwistle arranged and played horn parts, but Townshend had fully realized demos of almost every song he ever wrote. Entwistle obviously was able to enhance the bass parts and change them if he needed to, but there were foundations laid. And while Entwistle was on his honeymoon, the Stones got busted, and The Who recorded Under My Thumb and The Last Time as a benefit to their legal fund, and were planning to record more until their release, and Townshend provided the bass parts. The Stones were released before they recorded more songs, and Townshend's bass playing is not Entwistle's by any means, but he is better than Wyman.

Check out Pete Townshend's Scoop albums of Who demos. Also, Pete produced Something in the Air by Thunderclap Newman, and it went to #1, so he's not that bad a producer. Also, see Who's Next and Quadrophenia.

 

[AlvarHanso]

Daltrey claims everyone (except for him) in the band was taking drugs in the early 60s. Virtually everyone in that band had a serious vice or serious issues with their upbringing - and drugs helped them deal with it. Daltrey claimed he never took drugs because he was afraid it would affect his libido...lol!

I have no reason to believe that Entwistle didn't begin using drugs as soon as he could obtain them.

I'll agree with you here, as his nickname The Ox had nothing to do with him being big and imposing, or just standing there playing; it was bestowed because he had the tolerance of an ox to drugs or drink. At least until he had a heart condition in his late 50s and went out like a rockstar at the Hard Rock Hotel in Vegas.

 

[thabassmon]

Listen to Quadrophenia. You are talking nonsense. You also belittle the genius of Townshend as an innovator of synthesizers as a lead instrument and as a rhythm track. He was ahead of everyone in rock or pop music on that, and his demos made at his apartment and later garden shed are better than 90% of albums released in the 60s and 70s.

If you listen to Summertime Blues or Shakin' All Over and don't think they can play rudimentary rock, I don't know what to tell you.

Keith Moon didn't have a practical use for a hi-hat and ditched it from 1964-73, and only used it for Bell Boy. He did indeed use most of that massive drum kit, as evidenced by plenty of videos from the time period, as well as actually listening to the different sounds of his fills on record. Is he unconventional? Absolutely! Is he he the garbage drummer that Townshend says now? Absolutely not. Billy Cobham watched Keith at a drum clinic and said, "I don't know what you're doing, but keep doing it!" Billy Cobham is a pretty good drummer. Most everybody agrees Neil Peart was a great drummer, and his hero was Moon. Bonham's hero was Moon. Ginger Baker hated him, but he hated everybody. You obviously don't like The Who, that's fine, but saying they're crap musicians is wrong on many levels.

And a general addition to this thread, much has been mentioned about the large stacks of amps, but he started the very first small stack as well. Once Moon joined the band, he got a second 50W Marshall, and Townshend got another one, then Entwistle got 2 100W amps, as did Townshend, and the volume war's great casualty was Roger Daltrey who forever screamed at Entwistle to turn down. At one show in 1975, disgusted by having already turned down to satisfy him, when Daltrey yelled at him to turn down again, he took his bass off and slung it to the stage and told him to play it. And in 1989, when Daltrey convinced Townshend to take The Who back out with Tommy, Townshend's audiologist told him it couldn't be above 90db onstage, and Daltrey said, they'd just turn down. And Townshend had to explain that if they turned Entwistle down, they'd lose all the harmonics coming from his rig that had reinforced the sound for so long. So they hired a big brass band and strings to do the tour to fill in that sound. Luckily, Townshend's hearing improved in later years and IEM helped him.

And also, there's this about 4:12 in:

Of course a fan would disagree, and that's fine too.

I like some of their stuff, but you are right I am not an avid fan. Thanks for the recommendation but I've already listened to Quadrophenia, in fact I have it on vinyl and CD.

I am not denying that Keith Moon is revered. I can understand how John Bonham who plays nothing like Moon could be a fan, with Moon being in a big rock act playing his instrument loudly, proudly and prominently. What Keith Moon did was bring a high level of showmanship, great energy and a bombastic unorthodox approach to rock drumming, those are his strong attributes. The attributes that typically define a drummer as good are time feel, stated or implied and groove, that is what is mostly lacking.

Even simple material such as "Young Man Blues" from the isle of wight shows what I mean. The time drifts a lot.

If you are wondering why live and not studio, simple. Anyone can sound good in the studio, providing they are allowed enough takes. If you can't do it live, you can't do it.

Yes Pete Townsend broadened his horizons by incorporating synthesizers, but his main role in the Who was guitar player, his skills as a guitar player was less than the skills of his contemporaries, such as Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck, Jimi Hendrix etc. Perhaps he realised this himself and perhaps that is what motivated his investigation and utilisation of synthesizers and sequencers. And as agreed before Yes, Pete can write a song.

Like I stated on my first post in this thread, John Entwistle did really well to cover for his other band members, perhaps that is why he played so many notes, why he needed to develop such a bright cutting sound.

I see the Who as primarily a Bass Player driven band. Take Entwistle out when they were in their formative years, what would you get? A mod band with maybe couple of hits at a guess.

Entwistle is the one that makes that band different.

 

[dr doofie]

The Cannibal Corpse guy is absolutely amazing on bass
If it weren't for some link from here to a tutorial of his, I would have never heard it
And I'll never listen to the music
But I can sure appreciate the skill

Alex Webster
I just remembered

 

[dr doofie]

Thanks for the heads up. I'll try to find the tutorial and check him out.

Alex Webster
Wow only took me two days to remember...

 

[AlvarHanso]

If you are wondering why live and not studio, simple. Anyone can sound good in the studio, providing they are allowed enough takes. If you can't do it live, you can't do it.

Yes Pete Townsend broadened his horizons by incorporating synthesizers, but his main role in the Who was guitar player, his skills as a guitar player was less than the skills of his contemporaries, such as Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck, Jimi Hendrix etc. Perhaps he realised this himself and perhaps that is what motivated his investigation and utilisation of synthesizers and sequencers. And as agreed before Yes, Pete can write a song.

Like I stated on my first post in this thread, John Entwistle did really well to cover for his other band members, perhaps that is why he played so many notes, why he needed to develop such a bright cutting sound.

I see the Who as primarily a Bass Player driven band. Take Entwistle out when they were in their formative years, what would you get? A mod band with maybe couple of hits at a guess.

Entwistle is the one that makes that band different.

Okay, so not being the equal of three of the top 10 guitarists means he's terrible. Got it. And his "role" is strictly a guitar player, not the main songwriter, who created demos with drums and bass and keys, and his "demo" synths of Baba O'Riley and Won't Get Fooled Again are the ones on the record. The record that went to #1 in the US and is universally hailed as one of the greatest albums of all time.

"A couple of hits"? Okay, you're quite clearly trolling.

The Who was not a bass driven band, it was a band of three lead instrumentalists and a front man singer. Each left an indelible mark on rock music, and especially together. You say if you can't do it live, you can't do it, what couldn't they do live? They were widely hailed as the greatest live band of the greatest period in rock history. Check out The Best, the supergroup Entwistle was in with Joe Walsh, Skunk Baxter, Keith Emerson, and Simon Philips. I posted a video of them doing Fanfare For the Common Man for the solo Entwistle does, but check out the rest of the show on youtube and see how he approaches Steely Dan Reelin' in the Years, Bodhisattva (in double time), Joe Walsh Rocky Mountain Way, his own Boris the Spider and Too Late the Hero, which Skunk introduces as his favorite part of the setlist. If you're not trolling and do want to know why he's revered watch that. The guys in that band, if you dismiss them out of hand as subpar musicians, then I don't know what to tell you, but see if Entwistle isn't the best player on that stage.