What's the deal with the major/minor second interval?

[Tupac]

*MINOR scale = natural minor

Major 7 - apart of the MAJOR scale only
minor 7 - apart of the MINOR scale only
Major 6 - apart of the MAJOR scale only
minor 6 - apart of the MINOR scale only
Perfect 5 - apart of BOTH scales
Perfect 4 - apart of BOTH scales
Major 3 - apart of the MAJOR scale only
minor 3 - apart of the MINOR scale only
Major 2 - apart of BOTH scales
minor 2 - apart of... none??

Did they realize the pattern wasn't working when they got down to the 2nd interval and just went along with it?

 

[Nashrakh]

Phrygian and Locrian don't exist? Modes are way older than minor and major. So you have it backwards.

 

[Lobster11]

Agreed that this would make no sense if that was the way "they" created the major and natural minor scales. But that isn't how "they" did it.

 

[SteveCS]

*MINOR scale = natural minor

Major 7 - apart of the MAJOR scale only
minor 7 - apart of the MINOR scale only
Major 6 - apart of the MAJOR scale only
minor 6 - apart of the MINOR scale only
Perfect 5 - apart of BOTH scales
Perfect 4 - apart of BOTH scales
Major 3 - apart of the MAJOR scale only
minor 3 - apart of the MINOR scale only
Major 2 - apart of BOTH scales
minor 2 - apart of... none??

Did they realize the pattern wasn't working when they got down to the 2nd interval and just went along with it?

You are mixing terms here. Intervals exist between any two notes. The are measured from the bottom note, but have no singular or exclusive relationship with the root of a chord or tonic of a scale. For example the m2 appears between the 3rd and 4th of a major scale, the 2nd and 3rd of a minor scale, and so on. It is the interval of a single semi-tone. Enharmonic with an augmented unison.
The augmented 2nd appears between the 6th and 7th degrees of the harmonic minor scale, e.g. F to G# in A minor. It consists of 3 semitones and is enharmonic with the m3.

 

[Tupac]

You are mixing terms here. Intervals exist between any two notes. The are measured from the bottom note, but have no singular or exclusive relationship with the root of a chord or tonic of a scale. For example the m2 appears between the 3rd and 4th of a major scale, the 2nd and 3rd of a minor scale, and so on. It is the interval of a single semi-tone. Enharmonic with an augmented unison.
The augmented 2nd appears between the 6th and 7th degrees of the harmonic minor scale, e.g. F to G# in A minor. It consists of 3 semitones and is enharmonic with the m3.

Sure, I get that an interval is merely a "distance between 2 notes". In the OP, I was speaking with respect to the root of the scales.

 

[Michael Case]

What "pattern" are you referring to in your original post?

 

[Spin Doctor]

*MINOR scale = natural minor

Major 7 - apart of the MAJOR scale only
minor 7 - apart of the MINOR scale only
Major 6 - apart of the MAJOR scale only
minor 6 - apart of the MINOR scale only
Perfect 5 - apart of BOTH scales
Perfect 4 - apart of BOTH scales
Major 3 - apart of the MAJOR scale only
minor 3 - apart of the MINOR scale only
Major 2 - apart of BOTH scales
minor 2 - apart of... none??

Did they realize the pattern wasn't working when they got down to the 2nd interval and just went along with it?

I think there may be a hole in your understanding of minor scales. It seems like you think there's only one. Dorian, Phrygian, Aeolian (the one I'm assuming you call "the" minor scale) and Locrian are all minor scales. All of these are related to the major scale.

I guess if you only want to look at it in terms of one major scale and one minor scale, I suppose what you're saying is true but it's not the whole story. I'm not really sure what you're trying to figure out.

 

[SteveCS]

Sure, I get that an interval is merely a "distance between 2 notes". In the OP, I was speaking with respect to the root of the scales.

My point was that the pattern you are hoping to find - some singular relationship between one interval and the tonic (not root) of one scale - doesn't really exist. For example, the major and minor 6ths are diatonic in the minor keys, i.e. they are not exclusive to major or minor keys. And what about the augmented 4th and diminished 5th, upon which most western music is predicated one way or another.

 

[brianrost]

Go listen to some Middle Eastern and Bulgarian music and you'll hear all the minor seconds you'll ever want to.

Even as a wee bass player almost 50 years ago I had discovered (by accident) the Phrygian (starts on the major 3) and Locrian (starts on the major 7) modes of the major scale and was fascinated at how cool they sounded.

Playing a couple of Phrygian licks for spice over major7 chords is always fun (like E Phrygian or B Locrian over a Cmaj7). Actually, give it a try just jamming in those two modes for a while. I love playing lines that keep landing on that minor second.

 

[mambo4]

I think its more useful to view intervals as preceding scales and chords
Interval qualities are not major /minor because they are "from" major/minor scales
Rather the reverse: scales & chords are major /minor because of the intervals they contain (specifically the 3rd)

 

[HolmeBass]

You’ve found a partial pattern that correlates well but is not an actual relationship.

The major and minor intervals are not named from their membership in either the major or minor scales. That is not how it works, which is why that correlation breaks down.

The intervals, major and perfect, come from the relationships in the major scale. The modification of decreasing the named major intervals by a half step changes their name to minor. Decreasing the perfect 5th by a half step yields a diminished 5th.

The minor scale (assuming you mean natural minor) is a mode of the major scale. That is where it comes from. Harmonic and melodic minor have more major intervals in them, so for those equally valid minor scales the pseudo-correlation you noticed breaks down even more.

 

[Papageno]

Did they realize the pattern wasn't working when they got down to the 2nd interval and just went along with it?

Who is "they"? And what is it that "they" got "wrong"? Your statement is very unclear.

 

[BobDeRosa]

Don't forget melodic minor, which uses a major seventh, making your second statement false.

 

[Mushroo]

"minor" = "small" (as in Ursa Minor is the Little Bear constellation)
"major" = "large" (as in Ursa Major is the Big Bear constellation)

A "minor 2nd" gets its name because it is smaller than a major 2nd.

That's it. It's that simple.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the major scale vs. the minor scale.

 

[James Collins]

This is how I see it using real notes and C major and minor as scale examples:

C - part of both (C major and C minor)
Db - part of neither
D - part of both (major and minor 2nd)
Eb - part of minor (minor 3rd)
E - part of major (major 3rd)
F - part of both (4th)
Gb - part of neither
G - part of both (5th)
Ab - part of minor (minor 6th)
A - part of major (major 6th)
Bb - part of minor (minor 7th)
B - part of major (major 7th)

So the scales are:
Cmajor: C D E F G A B
Cminor: C D Eb F G Ab Bb

An interval is a different thing. The notes of a major scale are major intervals. C to D is a major second interval. C to Db is a minor second interval. Perfect intervals don't get called minor if you move a semitone--instead they are called diminished.

Also, we are so used to thinking in even temperament. That this is going to sound weird, but when "they" came up with this the D in C major was different than the D in C minor (which would be the same D that is present in Eb major). It still is on instruments like violin that use just intonation. For piano players and fretted string instruments it seems like they are the same note because they are for us, but they also aren't.

 

[JohnnyBottom]

2nds are left in the dark..... preffering b9 and #9 , how about a #9 in a major scale,
that'll get your panties in a knot I bet

 

[dreamadream99]

"minor" = "small" (as in Ursa Minor is the Little Bear constellation)
"major" = "large" (as in Ursa Major is the Big Bear constellation)

A "minor 2nd" gets its name because it is smaller than a major 2nd.

That's it. It's that simple.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the major scale vs. the minor scale.

Finally.

 

[Papageno]

This is how I see it using real notes and C major and minor as scale examples:

C - part of both (C major and C minor)
Db - part of neither
D - part of both (major and minor 2nd)
Eb - part of minor (minor 3rd)
E - part of major (major 3rd)
F - part of both (4th)
Gb - part of neither
G - part of both (5th)
Ab - part of minor (minor 6th)
A - part of major (major 6th)
Bb - part of minor (minor 7th)
B - part of major (major 7th)

Well no! D belonging to the C minor scale does not make it a minor 2nd above C!

The interval from C to D is a major 2nd, irrespective of whether it is from the C major scale, D minor scale, E minor scale, A minor scale, F major scale, F major pentatonic, or whatever you want.

A major 2nd is major 2nd is a major 2nd!

 

[primusfan1989]

It has nothing to do with the major or minor scales or how scale degrees and intervals relate. Its morehow to identify the distance between to given notes. In a Major scale an m2 interval will exist between E and F as well as B and C. With the exception of the Whole tone scam and pentatonic scales I believe just about every scale/mode will contain a m2 interval

 

[James Collins]

Well no! D belonging to the C minor scale does not make it a minor 2nd above C!

The interval from C to D is a major 2nd, irrespective of whether it is from the C major scale, D minor scale, E minor scale, A minor scale, F major scale, F major pentatonic, or whatever you want.

A major 2nd is major 2nd is a major 2nd!

I'm sorry, i was typing that on my phone. You are correct. I would fix it, but the window is closed. Thanks