Sure! Jazz musicians can converse that way. I just don't hear it as often in that context.
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What's the deal with the major/minor second interval?
- Thread starter Tupac
- Start date
Sure! Jazz musicians can converse that way. I just don't hear it as often in that context.
Really? Your experience differs from mine, then. I've never heard any musician who knows the language of intervals, jazz or classical, say anything like, "The melody jumps by a lowered 6th here." You would always say "minor 6th." You might say, however, something like "This chord has a raised 5 or a flat 13 in it."
The difference is that in one case, you're referring strictly to distance--much like saying "5 miles." In the other case you're referring to selection of tones from an assumed original scale and then modifying them--more like saying, "I'll have a burger, fries, and a Coke, no mayo on the burger [or no salt on the fries, or no ice in the Coke]."
The distinction might be clearer if, as has often been suggested, we reserve the suffix "-th" for strict intervals and use the number alone for scale degrees. Thus the interval from C up to the next higher G is a perfect 5th; G is the 5 of the C major scale (or of any number of chords based on C).
Really? Your experience differs from mine, then. I've never heard any musician who knows the language of intervals, jazz or classical, say anything like, "The melody jumps by a lowered 6th here." You would always say "minor 6th." You might say, however, something like "This chord has a raised 5 or a flat 13 in it."
The difference is that in one case, you're referring strictly to distance--much like saying "5 miles." In the other case you're referring to selection of tones from an assumed original scale and then modifying them--more like saying, "I'll have a burger, fries, and a Coke, no mayo on the burger [or no salt on the fries, or no ice in the Coke]."
The distinction might be clearer if, as has often been suggested, we reserve the suffix "-th" for strict intervals and use the number alone for scale degrees. Thus the interval from C up to the next higher G is a perfect 5th; G is the 5 of the C major scale (or of any number of chords based on C).
Honestly, I think you and I have just had different experiences. I understand the minor/major interval designations if that's the way someone is talking to me, but that's not the way everyone approaches it, in my experience.
In the end, it's certainly not about right or wrong, but rather whether musicians can communicate effectively.
My understanding is that a tetra chord by definition is 4 notes spanning a perfect 4th: that requires a semitone.
Most octave scales are comprised of 2 tetra chords.
Beyond this, IMO, one can guess almost anything (color, modes, altered scales, etc.).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrachord
Most octave scales are comprised of 2 tetra chords.
Beyond this, IMO, one can guess almost anything (color, modes, altered scales, etc.).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrachord
No worries whatsoever. So let’s say we’re creating the rules centuries ago. I propose:
Major = 3rds only
Perfect= 4ths and 5ths only
Raised and lowered = 2nds, 6ths and 7ths
They are all fixed intervals.
A diminished second...doesn’t sound like an interval...
I know it has it’s purpose, but few are those who appreciate it. Those who do have invested the time and interest.
I guess I’m working on the Music for dummies book.
That is irrational and incomplete. When intervals are inverted, the quality changes: minor to major, diminished to augmented. Perfect remain perfect. For example a minor 3rd becomes a major 6th. Under your proposed scheme, minor become raised, and lowered become major. Whereas a lowered 2nd becomes a raised 7th. Feels like complexity for it's own sake.
But it's all conjecture as a fully functional and documented system is already established and working in the real world.
Yes, I hear this a lot and it can work. The most important thing really is, as @Papageno noted earlier, that the people involved in something in the room or on a stage together at a point in time understand each other.
Beyond that, it is only what emerges from the room or stage that matters.
My scheme...haha!
Incomplete to be sure and not worried about trying to finish it, yes the language has been settled for ages. And as stated means nothing if the music being communicated is what the artists are wanting to put out. However...the inverted interval example doesn’t scare me away from my scheme haha. Minor 3 to raised 6, not quite as pretty as Major 6 but certainly not the proof my scheme won’t hold up. I’m sure there are better reasons though and I’m not too worried about it.
I do know this to be true: in a room of 5 young people holding instruments which meets once or if lucky twice a week for an hour, if I use the term raised 6 when speaking of Dorian for example, I won’t get asked “I thought it was minor?” One less speed bump. Rarely but on occasion I get a group who don’t glaze over when any discussion of modes for example come up and I’m able to go a little deeper.
Scheme...I’m going over to “ArgueClave.com” now to discuss Critical Triplet Theory.
Incomplete to be sure and not worried about trying to finish it, yes the language has been settled for ages. And as stated means nothing if the music being communicated is what the artists are wanting to put out. However...the inverted interval example doesn’t scare me away from my scheme haha. Minor 3 to raised 6, not quite as pretty as Major 6 but certainly not the proof my scheme won’t hold up. I’m sure there are better reasons though and I’m not too worried about it.
I do know this to be true: in a room of 5 young people holding instruments which meets once or if lucky twice a week for an hour, if I use the term raised 6 when speaking of Dorian for example, I won’t get asked “I thought it was minor?” One less speed bump. Rarely but on occasion I get a group who don’t glaze over when any discussion of modes for example come up and I’m able to go a little deeper.
Scheme...I’m going over to “ArgueClave.com” now to discuss Critical Triplet Theory.
That’s not what these things mean.*MINOR scale = natural minor
Major 7 - apart of the MAJOR scale only
minor 7 - apart of the MINOR scale only
Major 6 - apart of the MAJOR scale only
minor 6 - apart of the MINOR scale only
Perfect 5 - apart of BOTH scales
Perfect 4 - apart of BOTH scales
Major 3 - apart of the MAJOR scale only
minor 3 - apart of the MINOR scale only
Major 2 - apart of BOTH scales
minor 2 - apart of... none??
Did they realize the pattern wasn't working when they got down to the 2nd interval and just went along with it?
The 5th and 4th are “perfect” in that they’re the middle of the scale. Moving either up or down a semitone makes them augmented or diminished.
Major as a label applies to scale tones from the major scale. Major 3rd, major 2nd, major 6th, major 7th. The minor label applied to those scale tones mean they’re reduced by a semi tone from those major scale tones. So you can have a major 3rd and 6th in a scale with a minor 7th (the Mixolydian mode or Dominant chord). You can also have a minor scale with a major 6th. If you instead raise those major scale tones a semitone, they’re then augmented. If you lower them twice, aka once to minor and then once more, they’re then diminished.
Am I missing your point? Apologies if so.
It's not really because they're in the middle of the scale. It's because they were considered the most consonant intervals. The unison and the octave are perfect as well, for the same reason.
Not exactly. The major 2nd is also in the minor scales, and you can find the major 6th and major 7th in minor scales too.
It's worthwhile also to remember that intervals are not necessarily tied to any scale, major or minor or whatever. They're also absolute measures of distance, like 5 meters. From C to Eb is a minor 3rd in any context where you find it.
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Yes, I agree.
Is that not what I said, just paraphrased?
Yes, I agree.
Tetrachords are the best. My entire understanding and execution of every scale type is based on the tetrachord system.
Not really. Unfortunately, the terms Major and Minor are 'overloaded', that is to say they have several distinct meanings which have incomplete, irrational or non-existent relationships with the other meanings. Which is where the OP came unstuck - he was looking for such a relationship or correlation and then complained when his attempts to codify or rationalise that relationship broke down. It broke down because the correlation he was looking for does not exist.
In this case, the name of a scale cannot be used to infer anything about the qualities of intervals within the scale. Likeswise, the quality of any single interval cannot be used to draw inference about the quality of scale(s) within which it might appear. The observation that the intervals between the tonic and the other degrees in the major scale are all major or perfect is little more than a useful convenience. The same is not true of most of the minor scales.
Pot8o, pot@o. I’m not getting into long winded posts about semantics and how someone might misunderstand, what I’d said is accurate.
Since I know you typically know your stuff, I hope you're being sarcastic.
This is correct. A major scale contains minor intervals. For example, the C major scale:
C - D - E - F - G - A - B - C
Minor 2nds occur between E & F and B & C
Additionally, there's a minor 6th between E & C.
And a minor scale contains major intervals. For example, the A natural minor scale:
A - B - C - D - E - F - G - A
Major 2nds occur between A & B, C & D, D & E, F & G, and G & A.
Addtionally, there's a Major 6th between C and A.
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Since I know you typically know your stuff, I hope you're being sarcastic.
This is correct. A major scale contains minor intervals. For example, the C major scale:
C - D - E - F - G - A - B - C
Minor 2nds occur between E & F and B & C
Additionally, there's a minor 6th between E & C.
And a minor scale contains major intervals. For example, the A natural minor scale:
A - B - C - D - E - F - G - A
Major 2nds occur between A & B, C & D, D & E, F & G, and G & A.
Addtionally, there's a Major 6th between C and A.
MonetBass is right - and there's more intervals hiding in there too.
All of the intervals can be derived from a major scale:
- Minor 2d : there are 2 between scale degrees 3 & 4, as well as 7&8
- Major 2d : there are actually 5 pairs to be found. (Using C major : CD, DE, FG, GA, AB)
- Minor 3d : 4 of these. (AC, DF, BD, EG)
- Major 3d : 3 pairs...
- Perfect 4th : 6 available
- Tritone : 1
The rest can be derived via inversion of. Ex: minor 2 inverts to a Maj 7 etc.
If you're a music theory geek, you'll likely recognize this as the interval vector of 7-35 (Forte number, aka the major scale) or, as it is usually expressed, <254361>.
GT
That is the most common use, yes. However, as the wiki link notes, tetrachord is another term that is dependent on context. For instance, in atonal theory it is often used to refer to any four note collection.
It's one of the things that makes music theory so exasperating at first - plenty of terms are used in different ways in different contexts. @SteveCS rightly notes major and minor as terms that 'overloaded' this way. Music theory is an accrued and not a designed system - bits and pieces were added over centuries in many different places, and this why it can seem inconsistent or counter-intuitive at first.
To add to the fun, people in different aspects of music (jazz, classical, etc) sometimes talk about the same things in different ways.
As a classical guy, my brain always does a double take when I see a triangle symbol in a jazz chart.
GT
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Agreed: Schoenberg et al. aside, I just used it as a simple way to cut through the noise regarding semitones.
