Whats the difference of woods?

[M.R. Ogle]

Certainly someone who works with / for a bass guitar manufacturer could pull a couple different basses off the rack and demonstrate the differences, if that would convince anyone.

I don't need any further proof of this more than I need proof that chocolate tastes good.

 

[mongo2]

True, I did say "I tend to agree with this." Not a hard stance on the subject, but yes, a stance, a conclusion nonetheless. I respectfully retract my "I haven't concluded" claim and apologize.

But I really don't know. I'm skeptical. I tend to agree that wood type doesn't make a noticeable difference because I haven't heard/been shown otherwise, but I must always keep an open mind. Everyone has preconceptions, including me.

So I do have a burden here. I will listen to your clips. I'll see what else I can find, too.

I think it's a fascinating subject, and I'm not trying to insult anyone here.

What would you accept as proof?

 

[Brad Johnson]

I hate to take sides in this, but by your own words, it's not good enough. Two different basses. That's not proof. Also, it's a Youtube clip with terrible audio quality.

If I had the capital right now, I'd go out and have four basses made for me, all of the exact same physical dimensions, hardware, and electronics setup (even down to using wire from the same spool), just with different wood used for the bodies. Neck and fingerboard wood would be constant. I would record one sound clip into Pro Tools from each, playing the exact same line, with my hand at the same position, with the same pickup blend and volume setting, and use that as an example. Then I would record ten different sound clips each, post them unlabeled on TB in a random order, and ask people to identify which body woods made which tone. The numbers would give us a rough idea of how distinct a difference wood makes on tone.

That, I believe, would be the kind of solid evidence that could possibly convince some of the skeptics, as long as every detail and step of the process is documented. I would then sell all those basses since I'm not made of money, then make four more nearly-identical instruments with different neck woods, and repeat the process. Then, lastly, repeat the experiment with different fretboard woods.

If only I had that kind of cash...

I guess if I were more interested in being a lab tech than a bassist and had the kind of funds and absolutely nothing better to do...

nope... I still wouldn't do it. Because it's fundamentally pointless*. Be prepared to have it shot down over the inherent flaws in the methodology.

But here's a suggestion... when you do it, make sure you can't hear the playback. Because yes, that can influence your playing too.

IOW we are (alledgedly) bassists. We are not machines. You'd need a machine to play the bass, not a human.



*plus I don't really care if people believe wood doesn't matter.

 

[bigbottomline]

Whether you heard it or not in a sound clip would only be anecdotal evidence as well.

Yes, my experience with the clips would be, but the sound clips themselves wouldn't. And they'd be available to everyone.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Waste of time... and I do not think in either of these threads on this subject that anyone offered as "hard scientific fact" that the wood makes a difference, it was always IMO and "in my experience" that was offered to the discussion.

However, I did see SEVERAL posts stating flatly that wood made little or NO DIFFERENCE to the tone of an instrument.

There is no "burden of proof" necessary. You ask for input and information on a subject such as this, expect that you'll get MOSTLY personal experiences and anecdotal evidence. That's enough for most reasonable people.

To demand scientific hard evidence in a forum about creative endeavor such as music and luthiery is folly. Learn from those with experience. If that's not good enough, postulate all you want. You get it, or you dont.

Yep.

Is it wrong that I find these threads so entertaining?

 

[mongo2]

Yes, my experience with the clips would be, but the sound clips themselves wouldn't.

Still, everyone's experience with the sound clips would be anecdotal. Which you have deemed unacceptable.

What would you accept as proof?

 

[Muaguana]

That wouldn't prove anything either since you're using different necks. Even though they're the same type of wood, each piece has different characteristics.

It would be best to use the same neck, hardware, and electronics for each body under test.

BTW, I've done this precise test several times keeping necks constant and changing bodies for one series and then keeping the body constant and changing necks for another. That's where I got my IMEs/IMOs you mentioned.

I never said it was flawless. To be perfectly honest I could care less what other people believe or don't believe. All I'm saying is that if you want to convince someone who needs impartial evidence, you better have documented, impartial, tangible proof.

Still, everyone's experience with the sound clips would be anecdotal. Which you have deemed unacceptable

That's why you post several sound clips that are unlabeled and have people try to decide which was made with which body wood, after listening to one labeled clip made by each wood. That simple, really. If it's all over the map, then one could safely assume it's just guesswork and the differences are not as distinct as some say.

 

[johnk_10]

plus another variable is that each bass tested has to be tested with a different 'performance'. and some might say that you fingered the notes slightly differently or hugged the body more on one clip than another, and at different times of the day (temp, humidity variances). i've been down that road before when i posted clips of the same bass thru 12 of my different bass preamps.

 

[mongo2]

Yep.

Is it wrong that I find these threads so entertaining?

Nah. They're more fun than a barrel monkees with slinkys.

 

[mongo2]

I never said it was flawless. To be perfectly honest I could care less what other people believe or don't believe. All I'm saying is that if you want to convince someone who needs impartial evidence, you better have documented, impartial, tangible proof.

I guess it can't be done then because sound is subject to too many variables from the generator of the sound to the listening conditions to the perceptions of the listener and their willingness to accept anything as proof.

So it looks like we're back to the old "if you hear it you hear it, if you don't you don't."

 

[Brad Johnson]

Nah. They're more fun than a barrel monkees with slinkys.

Sorry, I don't believe that. Do you have a clip?

 

[Dark Horse]

Interesting that I've posted links to actual scientific vibrational mode tests on the effects of body shape on the resonant frequency of electric guitars, and most of the people calling for evidence have chosen to ignore it.

Scientific tests that PROVE that the body itself vibrates at various resonant frequencies that are changed due to the body shape. If the body "shape" actually changes the way stings vibrate over the pickups, so MUST the body composition.

Sorry if you don't like the test results, but ignoring it doesn't change the fact that the body affects string vibration over the pickup, which in turn affects the sound of the electrified instrument.

Facts are facts.

 

[mongo2]

Sorry, I don't believe that. Do you have a clip?

There's gotta be one on Utube somewhere.

 

[Raoul_Duke]

One thing I've been wondering about since I first stumbled into "The Tone Wars!!!" is why luthiers would use wood in the construction of so many solid body electrics if it has no effect on tone. It seems a very fickle and inconvenient medium, if indeed it has no impact on the final sound.

The one thing I've learned from this thread: I want me some of Kjungs toys.

 

[mongo2]

Interesting that I've posted links to actual scientific vibrational mode tests on the effects of body shape on the resonant frequency of electric guitars, and most of the people calling for evidence have chosen to ignore it.

Scientific tests that PROVE that the body itself vibrates at various resonant frequencies that are changed due to the body shape. If the body "shape" actually changes the way stings vibrate over the pickups, so MUST the body composition.

Sorry if you don't like the test results, but ignoring it doesn't change the fact that the body affects string vibration over the pickup, which in turn affects the sound of the electrified instrument.

Facts are facts.

I find that it was ignored interesting as well. The very basis of that article is that the wood has an effect. They're just testing that how shape of the wood changes the effect of the wood. I would have done another test that used the same body and cut chunks off to see what happened.

 

[Dark Horse]

I find that it was ignored interesting as well. The very basis of that article is that the wood has an effect.

Plus it's not "just" an article. In fact it is closer to a series of scientific papers.

I would have used the same body and cut chunks off to see what happened.

IIRC, Geddy Lee didn't seem to like the tonal changes when he chopped up his old P Bass into a teardrop shape...but I think he also added another pickup. Of course if he thought it was "just the pickup" that changed the tone, I suspect he would have removed it.

 

[mongo2]

Plus it's not "just" an article. In fact it is closer to a series of scientific papers.

Yeah, in my day gig we usually call them articles or papers. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Muaguana]

I guess if I were more interested in being a lab tech than a bassist

If someone wants to find something out, then yes, they would be more of a lab tech in that situation. That's the whole point. If I weren't interested in being a tech when trying to find something out, I wouldn't try to find it out. Go figure, right?

 

[Dark Horse]

Yeah, in my day gig we usually call them articles. Sorry for the confusion.

Yeah, it's pretty much a "happy medium". Normal people can understand what is going on with a brief glance, but scientist/engineer types can dig into the charts and results a bit more. Either way, the results are plain to see.

 

[peterpalmieri]

True, I did say "I tend to agree with this." Not a hard stance on the subject, but yes, a stance, a conclusion nonetheless. I respectfully retract my "I haven't concluded" claim and apologize.

But I really don't know. I'm skeptical. I tend to agree that wood type doesn't make a noticeable difference because I haven't heard/been shown otherwise, but I must always keep an open mind. Everyone has preconceptions, including me.

So I do have a burden here. I will listen to your clips. I'll see what else I can find, too.

I think it's a fascinating subject, and I'm not trying to insult anyone here.

Many of us are really passionate about this topic.

Whether you've either done this research on your own or read information from top players, builders, manufacturers or just guys on TB who have been around the block. It's easy to come to the conclusion that the type of wood used in an electric bass plays a role in the final output.

That leads many people in the direction of "hey maybe I should check this out" or "eh I don't care". In any case as a bass player we all get to choose the instrument we play and if we're lucky enough get to hand pick each component and piece of that bass down to the specific piece of wood.

For me this is very interesting and has helped me find what I consider the right instrument for me. I don't need data to support what I am looking for just my own knowledge and experience.

If you (anyone) has gone down this road and concluded that it makes no meaningful difference to you that is ok. But if you haven't travelled the road keep an open mind. There is no need to make demands of proof or imperical data.

A bass is a sum of it's parts and at the end of the day we play what we think sounds good and there is no scientific data that tells us what sounds good and what doesn't.

One of the better stories which is not well documented is Anthony Jackson's pursuit of the Presentation Contrabass made by Fodera. How the wood and electronics or lack of work together to create a tone which he believes works best for him is fascinating. We all may not be in the position to commission Fodera to build us a dozwn different basses but playing a number of different jazz basses and seeing if you prefer ash/maple or alder/rosewood, 60s or 70s spacing. Single coil or other pickups, passive or a variety of preamps along with different mass bridges and different types of frets. Is something anybody can do with a little research and a few trips to local music stores.

When you are well along this journey and come to the conclusion that wood doesn't matter I am very interested in why you've come to that conclusion..