Double Bass What's wrong with the E string ?

[Lorenzo Ponce]

hi guys

Relatively new to double bass (< 2 years practice), I'm nonetheless super engaged in it : I'm playing semi-pro level (thanks to my 30+ years as a bassist and guitarist), currently studying at the Marseille Jazz Conservatory in France and generally speaking, embarked on this everlasting quest to become the best player I can be !

I had a super entry level Gewa I bought second hand for 800€ (including bag and bow !). After a year, I got stuck with its powerful but basic, flat tone. This bass is acceptable to play in an old school swing band, and that's pretty much it. It does not sing. Also, E string was kind of inexistent so it impacted my playing to the point where I never really played it - it did not go un-noticed by the jury members at my recent exam and my excuse sounded kind of lame...

So, after I successfully passed my mid year exam (youhou !) I bought a few days ago a new babe : Romanian made, fully massive, flatback, old school varnish, really nice and great sounding instrument for a moderate price (2500€). The guy who sold it to me not really play the DB, he had basic strings mounted and when I tested it, I noticed the E string was, again, very silent compared to the others. Nevertheless I loved that instrument and decided to go with it. I replaced strings with my Spirocore and imagined it would fix the issue but it didn't : now I have a great sounding bass, but still very weak low F, F#, G, Ab on the E string with no projection

Is it me ? Is it something I just have to come to peace with ? Am I cursed ? Is it because of the flat back ? Is this problem a common one and there is no solution apart from buying a pro level 8k€+ bass (which I can't) ?

I came across videos explaining lots of players actually use different set of strings on E/A and D/G, like Pirastro G/D Oliv and A/E Evah Pirazzi for exemple... should I consider this option and if so, what is your "best of" combination ?

Yesterday I had a gig and thanks to my setup - David Gage Soundclip ==> EBS Stanley Clarke preamp ==> Markbass I managed to get a decent sound but I'm still frustrated and again, afraid this will affect my playing to become "E-less" in the long run.

Thanks in advance

 

[jj.833]

Hi,
I can't help much, but surely it's not because it's flatback. I have a flatback (old Czech bass) and E sounds great no matter what strings I put on it, even Perpetual sounds strong and vivid.

If the bass doesn't sound with Spirocores, you will probably not achieve much by changing strings. It is however quite possible that the bass needs a better setup. My luthier once told me that factory basses, even quite expensive, are usually set in a routine matter, without any feedback from the players, and there's much that can be adjusted for much better. I'd take it to a luthier, he should tell you whether there's something that can be done, or you need to adjust your playing technique.

As for playing technique, the E is specific. For plucking, you need to acquire a bit different method than on other strings, because the index finger can't rest on the string below. I hear it described as 'unlocking the door' pluck. For bow, it's a matter of right posture and that takes time and practising.

I haven't seen a bass that wouldn't be usable because of weak E yet.

 

[Jay Corwin]

Does it sound weak to you when you are playing the bass, or weak out in front of the bass (or both)?

Can you setup a room mic a few feet away from the bass and record some stuff of your playing? That might give you a better idea.

 

[Lorenzo Ponce]

Hi,
I can't help much, but surely it's not because it's flatback. I have a flatback (old Czech bass) and E sounds great no matter what strings I put on it, even Perpetual sounds strong and vivid.

If the bass doesn't sound with Spirocores, you will probably not achieve much by changing strings. It is however quite possible that the bass needs a better setup. My luthier once told me that factory basses, even quite expensive, are usually set in a routine matter, without any feedback from the players, and there's much that can be adjusted for much better. I'd take it to a luthier, he should tell you whether there's something that can be done, or you need to adjust your playing technique.

As for playing technique, the E is specific. For plucking, you need to acquire a bit different method than on other strings, because the index finger can't rest on the string below. I hear it described as 'unlocking the door' pluck. For bow, it's a matter of right posture and that takes time and practising.

I haven't seen a bass that wouldn't be usable because of weak E yet.

Thanks for feedback. It certainly needs a luthier checkup - soundpost may have moved too... You mentioned and interesting point : it does sound when bowed so it may have something to do with my technique too

 

[Lorenzo Ponce]

Does it sound weak to you when you are playing the bass, or weak out in front of the bass (or both)?

Can you setup a room mic a few feet away from the bass and record some stuff of your playing? That might give you a better idea.

good question ! It certainly does from my standpoint when playing, less so in front but still not quite as punchy as I would. May be the action is set too low, it's an adjustable bridge so I'll give it a try (and if it does not work, I'll pay a visit to the luthier...)

 

[Ed S]

...currently studying at the Marseille Jazz Conservatory in France ...

Would be interesting to hear what these guys have to say about it. Or a luthier with it in their hands.

IIRC, we've had previous threads in which folk commented that their E strings were less than what they hoped for. I have a Spiro under my EPs - yet am still underwhelmed.

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I agree with sticking with a Spirocore E because it is the best option to get the bass working. Next, check soundpost position and fit. Generally, moving it out toward the f hole will help the E string. Bassbar position and quality of the neck set in the mortise might be factors but I doubt you would consider them to be options.

 

[Scott Lynch]

Some players like to bump the E string up a gauge with certain sets. Spiros are probably the #1 string where people do this.

Ex.: if you have a weich set, use a mittel E; or if you have a mittel set, try a stark E.

Definitely check for setup/general bass health issues first with a luthier, i.e. soundpost position. If all that checks out, try a heavier E.

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I just noticed that this in the string sub forum, although it’s not surprising. Fix what you can on the bass first but a heavier E might help too.

 

[Francois Blais]

Two basses in a row with a weak E?
Maybe that's your plucking technique.
Do you use the fingertips?
You may want to use more meat to pluck the strings.
Just a thought.

 

[turf3]

The E string is inherently weak on double bass. The fundamental frequency is too low for the size of resonating chamber that can be provided.

I too have a Romanian flatback, carved. The E string is not as strong as the others. I prefer Bel Canto strings, but I tried Spirocores - first mittel, then stark - and it was much the same. I went back to the Bel Canto E because I didn't care for the difference in tone quality of one Spirocore and the rest Bel Canto.

I think the best we can do, without regraduating the tops of our heavily-built basses (which will turn the bass into a different bass, you might like the results or you might not), is to take it to the luthier and explain and have him adjust the soundpost the best he can.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Some players like to bump the E string up a gauge with certain sets. Spiros are probably the #1 string where people do this.

Ex.: if you have a weich set, use a mittel E; or if you have a mittel set, try a stark E.

Definitely check for setup/general bass health issues first with a luthier, i.e. soundpost position. If all that checks out, try a heavier E.

+1

I've been doing this for years. It really makes a difference.

 

[AGCurry]

The E string is inherently weak on double bass. The fundamental frequency is too low for the size of resonating chamber that can be provided.

^^^ Truth. ^^^ I have yet to meet a double bass which provides fully-equal loudness from the E string.

As others suggest, setup may help, and the reason so many of us like a Spirocore E is that it gives us lots of harmonics and sustain, which raise its loudness.

However: Softer doesn't mean nonexistent; adjust your expectations and accept the constraint with affection; and, realize that the double bass is designed for the bow, so the E string will more closely match the others when played with the bow.

 

[iiipopes]

Hmmm. A lot of things could be going wrong.
1) for Jazz, many players, including me, use a Spirocore 4885 E-string (not the S42 - that is too light) to get more out of the bass. I recommend you try that. (see my signature)
2) Has the sound post been checked?
3) Is the bass healthy overall, with no cracks, separations, or loose bits?
4) Is the bridge cut correctly and the tailpiece adjusted properly to get the proper downforce over the bridge - not too little because it won't drive the top, and not too much that will choke the top?
5) Do you have a piezo or other pickup on the bass that might not be adjusted properly and be damping the strings?
6) And, of course, technique. As others have said, you really have to "pull" the tone out of an E string with the proper pizz technique.

 

[Engle]

Others have mentioned set up. You may need to raise the action to get more volume from the E string. This has helped for me in the past.

 

[Wasnex]

AFAIK inexpensive Romanian basses are often heavy and overbuilt, which limits tone and volume.

As has been mentioned, there is an inherent problem in that an upright is not large enough to reproduce the E string as well as higher notes.

There are things a skilled builder can do to reinforce the E string. In other words build a better bass. But of course we would expect a better bass to cost more. They can get very expensive.

I believe one trick is to tune the front and back plate to have different resonances. The difference frequency produced by these resonances can reinforce E string. My guess is it reinforces the 1st overtone (80hz) rather than the fundamental (40hz)

I assume tuning of the afterlengths and tail piece is also relevant.

Probably lots of other factors as well.

Post #2 here might give you some insight: Secrets of the Double Bass

 

[jmpiwonka]

i would have a luthier check out the bass. Especially soundpost position and fit. Maybe have some else pmay the bass and see if the E is weak for them too.

I just had my soundpost moved a bit and i like the overall sound better, i did lose a little power on the E for pizz (from my playing position).
It’s even playing arco though. I am not too worried about it as the E should be fine if amplified.

 

[logdrum]

E will always sound weak next to you. A few feet away it will speak. A small room with a lot of bass absorbing material (i.e my practice trom office with 7.5 ft ceilings and Adobe walls along with my wife's craft and boxes) will make it sounf tiny. Record it with a mic pretty closes as well as the back. plus a room mic You will hear what it really sounds like. If you do not have a common American middle age man belly and your hip bone is can be in contact with the bass side , you should feel that vibration. HAving said that the bass may need more work, sound post and nut and bridge will be the easiest. When it cracks and they have to open the bass. some tuning of the bass bar will help. I say unless it is really wimpy do not worry about it.

I do find that "fretted" E on bass with extensions have better thump and fundamental than open strings on regular basses. It just is. Sometimes if I want more fundamental I will fret it just before the nut. Will be slightly sharp of course.

Because of my room situation, I amplify my bass even when practicing ay home hardly noticeable and boost the low end a bit.


Luthier is a French word and you probably have the best makers in the planet. Aim for getting one from there

My oldest bass is a half size Czech I left it in a house where the aircon failed when I was away and the top slid off. During the repair they did something to it and it has become a loud bass even though my bassists friends told me it was a toy. My other bass was a more deliberate. The luthier told me to wait until the crack was wide and long enough.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

3/4 double basses are too small for the E string to sound good. And non-optimal setup and playing technique can make that worse.
A fully carved bass would be better than a ply that can sound a bit boring, but a hybrid (carved top only) is not bad either to get a resonant sound.
Not everyone's cup of tea, but a 4/4 size instrument (at least the resonance box that large) gets a better low end (but missing a bit on the higher pitched notes).

I have a 110 cm scale 4/4 5-string that I use with a high C, so lowest string is E and it sound really good on the E string. But experimenting with the soundpost position helped to get there too.

But top pressure from the strings can either clamp the top too much or don't drive it hard enough. A soundpost that is too long or at the wrong position can clamp the top too. The string tension also controls the top pressure, so finding out the best strings for your bass that are compatible with you can help.
Expect spending a few hours or a day at the luthier. When changing strings to be a different tension the bass needs about two weeks to adjust to the new top pressure, so part of this is your homework. (Borrow a few old sets from your luthier if possible.)

An adjustable saddle can help if the top is choked by too much pressure.
I have one on my bass (for a different reason) and can hear the volume difference.

But my bass was a cannon from the beginning with S42 (Mittel) 4/4 strings (on a 4/4 scale). But the action was a bit too high for me. One more reason why it was so loud.

For DB jazz plucking technique you might first use the Ray Brown method: index finger in parallel to the string, plucking with the side of the finger. Or even reinforced with the middle finger behind the index finger.
Don't hook under the string but don't glide over it either (only when releasing the pluck). If your string action is too low you always glide over the string and cannot grab it.
After release your plucking finger lands on the next lower string.

Plucking away from the fingerboard is for classical stuff only (hard pluck that way clashing against the fingerboard is Bartok-pizz).

Speed might be limited with the Ray Brown method,but 4/4 walking in medium tempos should work well.

For string action height at the end of the fingerboard I won't go lower than 9mm for the and rather prefer 10 to 11mm. Depends also of the type of string (mostly core, but also tension/weight), with plain gut it can easily go up to 15mm for the E.

My string heights G to E are 6, 7.5, 9, 10.5 to 11 mm. (Means gap between string and fingerboard at its end.)

For plucking the E string the right hand thumb is in parallel to the fingerboard at the edge (round the edges!) so you can pluck with pressure against the fingerboard.
That might be most important if you don't do that already.

To hear better how it sounds for listeners play into a free room corner with hard walls. You hear the reflection mixed with the drivers seat sound.

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

A double bass is not a bass guitar and will never sound like one. If you’re enrolled in conservatory I assume any errors of right-hand technique would have been noticed. As DoubleMIDI said above, the corpus of a 3/4 double bass is simply too small to pump 45 Hz. Try a Spirocore Stark on the E and hope it doesn’t choke the response.