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when constructive criticism becomes control, next on channel 7

Okay. So, a little while ago I posted a thread in this section about the virtues of "keeping it simple" as a bassist, and opened a discussion about what that means and how it can be a good thing.

Everything was lovely and rainbow skittles fell from the sky as cute puppies barked and small children frolicked in the springtime air. Until I realized that I am starting to feel controlled and suffocated by the leader of this band. I'm starting to recognize his personality type as one that...yeah. Sorry, I just have to get this out. I'll be quick, I promise.

He's a little passive-aggressive. One of those "I don't want drama" types who is so insistent on NOT having it anywhere near him that he ends up inadvertently creating it over his refusal to let anybody else ever be right, AND his refusal to ever address a problem by compromising with others. He's more than a little controlling when it comes to my personal life, as in, he sent me a 5-paragraph Facebook message talking all about how he's "not a fan" of my best friend moving in with me because the two of them butted heads over the rehearsal space and the schedule (which we share amongst two separate bands) and now I guess he hates my roommate.

To the point where whenever I bring up legitimate scheduling/logistical issues regarding the rehearsal space or anything that my roommate says or does, he basically won't even let me talk about it. I only mention the guy when it's relevant to the band...I don't complain to my bandmates and I certainly don't bother to tell the bandleader that my roommate and I had fun staying up until 2 am watching movies and eating junk food like a bunch of dorky kids. Well, the bandleader used to come over to my place to practice one-on-one and go over new songs and throw around ideas...and now he's not only saying he doesn't want to be anywhere near my roommate, but that I'm not allowed to play our music for him or practice our music in front of him...that I should password-protect my computer just in case. I'm astounded that someone could be so paranoid for pretty much no reason. It's just really unsettling.

So, that happened. And then we have the "we're not ready for gigs/I don't want to promote both our shows coming up because of the 2-week blackout rule/I don't want anyone hearing our rehearsal recordings except family and close friends" thing happening. Which really limits our ability to get out there and to get some feedback on our sound as we develop. I can understand being protective of your songs, and rightfully so...but at what point does it get ridiculous?

Then he has this weird passive attitude about finding a keyboardist and rhythm guitarist, while meanwhile we have run into numerous issues with our drummer and are considering replacing him once we play these gigs coming up. On the one hand, he's really ruthless about the people who he auditions and seems to be really particular about what he wants. And on the other hand, he has this kinda fatalist, "it's cool, man..." thing going on when it comes to our drummer. Our drummer has caused us to lose gigs due to his inability to communicate, AND he has timing issues that are becoming intolerable. Beyond that, his style just doesn't really mesh with us and he doesn't seem to have the skills to change. But somehow there doesn't seem to be a degree of urgency to get someone better behind that kit. While in the meantime, it's all about finding a keyboard player. So, skewed priorities are skewed. I realize he's the bandleader and can hire a freakin kazoo player if he wants, but it just seems as if he's letting certain issues fester and go unresolved, while being really impulsive about other things.

On top of all this, he's been practically trying to play my bass for me, constantly harping on being "simple" and throwing all these examples at me and rubbing it in my face how "simple" all these bass lines are. Well. Seeing as how his guitar playing is really sparse and honestly not super-skilled (he plays guitar because he has to in order to fill out the songs, not because he's a guitarist, if that makes sense), sometimes there's just TOO much space left in a song, so then what? It falls flat...at least right now when it's just the three of us. It's as if he's asking me to make room in the songs for musicians who aren't there yet and might not be for quite some time, and I feel that it occasionally sucks the life out of the songs AND limits ME as a player, which is incredibly frustrating. I'm not trying to get all pervy on you guys but it's like the musical equivalent of being sexually frustrated by someone who "just wants to wait" and comes up with all these reasons not to sleep together. How much of that can anybody take?! That's a rhetorical question, by the way. ;)

My point is, until lately, I've really enjoyed this band...it's been a very positive and powerful force in my life that has given me a sense of direction and discipline not just as a bassist, but as a person. In fact, I posted about it here. So it's unsettling to have these feelings creeping up on me now. Are these just my own growing pains? What is the lesson here...do I eventually resolve to move on from this band in order to stretch out as a bassist because that's just where my sensibilities are right now and I'm not getting paid by these guys to cater to their wishes? Do I keep my noodly chops to myself (wanking, ha ha, again with the metaphor!) and hope that's enough for me?

I just need some outside perspective on this. My original thread about the joys of simplicity was more about style and personal preference when it comes to the music itself. But the rest of this situation is a different story...it's political and personal. And therefore, I'm starting to wonder if it really has anything to do with the music at all, or if it's just a case of somebody else wanting to control me and me being so hungry for success and satisfaction, that I'll do anything they tell me to. Well, not ANYTHING, but you know what I mean!

I hope this kinda makes sense. I've been kinda overly-caffeinated and sleep-deprived lately, so pardon me if it doesn't!
 
I would leave that band.

If you're not publicising your gigs, why are you gigging in the first place?

He's telling you not to trust your friend and housemate. He's telling you when and where you can or can not practice your parts. He's telling you to password-protect your computer to protect his chord charts. Does he sound like a confident musician who can lead a band to success? The way you portray him, he sounds deeply insecure and unwilling to risk the judgement of others.

But that's just me. I like band leaders to be one of two things: a) confident, talented, and with a clear plan for the band's future, or b) myself. :D
 
If everything you wrote is accurate, your "band leader" has significant issues that go beyond an approach to making music.

The situation, as presented, is unhealthy for you; both as a musician, and as a person.

It will not get better in the future.
 
I would leave that band.

If you're not publicising your gigs, why are you gigging in the first place?

He's telling you not to trust your friend and housemate. He's telling you when and where you can or can not practice your parts. He's telling you to password-protect your computer to protect his chord charts. Does he sound like a confident musician who can lead a band to success? The way you portray him, he sounds deeply insecure and unwilling to risk the judgement of others.

But that's just me. I like band leaders to be one of two things: a) confident, talented, and with a clear plan for the band's future, or b) myself. :D



If everything you wrote is accurate, your "band leader" has significant issues that go beyond an approach to making music.

The situation, as presented, is unhealthy for you; both as a musician, and as a person.

It will not get better in the future.

I agree with both of these posters. If it really was all about the music then I wouldn't have much of a problem with the BL but from what you have posted it is clearly more than that. I do not believe you are going to get a person like you describe in your original post to make changes so it is up to you to clearly state your complaint and be ready to bail on the group or suck it up... (not a healthy step in the long term) It sounds like you are outgrowing this band. I'd start looking for a new group of people and recognize that a band is like a (polygamous) "marriage" and when one of the "spouses" is acting up it spoils the "marriage" for all. (you seem to appreciate the use of metaphor so I used a few as well) Good Luck in the next chapter of your career, it sounds like it is here/now.
 
I would definitely move on. The band may have been a positive experience in the past, but as you grow, it becomes a stepping stone. No harm I that. But if you stick around for too long, that stepping stone is just a weight around your neck.

BL sounds like a mess. I see no chance of a bright future with a leader who is against playing your music for people, against promoting gigs, and against addressing musicianship problems with the drummer. That's not a serious band, it's a couple of guys with a common hobby.

Stepping stone, not a weight around your neck. Move on IMO.
 
Sounds like my guitarist. Very passive aggressive, never lets anyone else be right, tries to turn an argument on the other person when he knows he's losing it, and very controlling.
 
There is no way I could be in the type of controlling atmosphere you've described. This BL of your seems a little off his rocker. When our singer tries to tell us to do something we might not all agree on, we tell him. Yours, however, sound way out of control. Personally, I would've been trying to find some other musicians to play with a looooooooooooooooong time ago! If you decide your gonna stay, you need to quit complaining, and take it like a b***h! That is all.....
 
brutal, dude. at the end of the day, you've got to be happy with your musical outlet(s), and it sounds to me like you're anything but. If you think this is a project you can make fit your needs, by all means try to do so. But if it's only going to bring you down like it is now, then I don't see the point in hanging around.

Not that they'll ever read this, but to all those pissy, whiny, controlling bandleaders: :spit:
 
Okay. So, a little while ago I posted a thread in this section about the virtues of "keeping it simple" as a bassist, and opened a discussion about what that means and how it can be a good thing.

Everything was lovely and rainbow skittles fell from the sky as cute puppies barked and small children frolicked in the springtime air. Until I realized that I am starting to feel controlled and suffocated by the leader of this band. I'm starting to recognize his personality type as one that...yeah. Sorry, I just have to get this out. I'll be quick, I promise.

He's a little passive-aggressive. One of those "I don't want drama" types who is so insistent on NOT having it anywhere near him that he ends up inadvertently creating it over his refusal to let anybody else ever be right, AND his refusal to ever address a problem by compromising with others. He's more than a little controlling when it comes to my personal life, as in, he sent me a 5-paragraph Facebook message talking all about how he's "not a fan" of my best friend moving in with me because the two of them butted heads over the rehearsal space and the schedule (which we share amongst two separate bands) and now I guess he hates my roommate.

To the point where whenever I bring up legitimate scheduling/logistical issues regarding the rehearsal space or anything that my roommate says or does, he basically won't even let me talk about it. I only mention the guy when it's relevant to the band...I don't complain to my bandmates and I certainly don't bother to tell the bandleader that my roommate and I had fun staying up until 2 am watching movies and eating junk food like a bunch of dorky kids. Well, the bandleader used to come over to my place to practice one-on-one and go over new songs and throw around ideas...and now he's not only saying he doesn't want to be anywhere near my roommate, but that I'm not allowed to play our music for him or practice our music in front of him...that I should password-protect my computer just in case. I'm astounded that someone could be so paranoid for pretty much no reason. It's just really unsettling.

So, that happened. And then we have the "we're not ready for gigs/I don't want to promote both our shows coming up because of the 2-week blackout rule/I don't want anyone hearing our rehearsal recordings except family and close friends" thing happening. Which really limits our ability to get out there and to get some feedback on our sound as we develop. I can understand being protective of your songs, and rightfully so...but at what point does it get ridiculous?

Then he has this weird passive attitude about finding a keyboardist and rhythm guitarist, while meanwhile we have run into numerous issues with our drummer and are considering replacing him once we play these gigs coming up. On the one hand, he's really ruthless about the people who he auditions and seems to be really particular about what he wants. And on the other hand, he has this kinda fatalist, "it's cool, man..." thing going on when it comes to our drummer. Our drummer has caused us to lose gigs due to his inability to communicate, AND he has timing issues that are becoming intolerable. Beyond that, his style just doesn't really mesh with us and he doesn't seem to have the skills to change. But somehow there doesn't seem to be a degree of urgency to get someone better behind that kit. While in the meantime, it's all about finding a keyboard player. So, skewed priorities are skewed. I realize he's the bandleader and can hire a freakin kazoo player if he wants, but it just seems as if he's letting certain issues fester and go unresolved, while being really impulsive about other things.

On top of all this, he's been practically trying to play my bass for me, constantly harping on being "simple" and throwing all these examples at me and rubbing it in my face how "simple" all these bass lines are. Well. Seeing as how his guitar playing is really sparse and honestly not super-skilled (he plays guitar because he has to in order to fill out the songs, not because he's a guitarist, if that makes sense), sometimes there's just TOO much space left in a song, so then what? It falls flat...at least right now when it's just the three of us. It's as if he's asking me to make room in the songs for musicians who aren't there yet and might not be for quite some time, and I feel that it occasionally sucks the life out of the songs AND limits ME as a player, which is incredibly frustrating. I'm not trying to get all pervy on you guys but it's like the musical equivalent of being sexually frustrated by someone who "just wants to wait" and comes up with all these reasons not to sleep together. How much of that can anybody take?! That's a rhetorical question, by the way. ;)

My point is, until lately, I've really enjoyed this band...it's been a very positive and powerful force in my life that has given me a sense of direction and discipline not just as a bassist, but as a person. In fact, I posted about it here. So it's unsettling to have these feelings creeping up on me now. Are these just my own growing pains? What is the lesson here...do I eventually resolve to move on from this band in order to stretch out as a bassist because that's just where my sensibilities are right now and I'm not getting paid by these guys to cater to their wishes? Do I keep my noodly chops to myself (wanking, ha ha, again with the metaphor!) and hope that's enough for me?

I just need some outside perspective on this. My original thread about the joys of simplicity was more about style and personal preference when it comes to the music itself. But the rest of this situation is a different story...it's political and personal. And therefore, I'm starting to wonder if it really has anything to do with the music at all, or if it's just a case of somebody else wanting to control me and me being so hungry for success and satisfaction, that I'll do anything they tell me to. Well, not ANYTHING, but you know what I mean!

I hope this kinda makes sense. I've been kinda overly-caffeinated and sleep-deprived lately, so pardon me if it doesn't!

Your BL may be in a band but he's not a leader in any sense of the word. There's no logic to his decision making and he creates drama where none need be created.

IMO, time to move on.

Check out: Why many bands fail
 
Jail? Hm...I don't know what it is, maybe not THAT bad! I'm just surprised that suddenly I'm hitting this point.

I kinda lost it last night at rehearsal...I hadn't eaten enough, I'd only gotten about 4 and a half hours of sleep the night before, the drummer was an hour late, the bass amp at the rehearsal space was having issues and I couldn't find a decent tone...I felt half-asleep and irritated the entire time, which is very unusual for me because usually I get such a rush when I'm playing and I feel so positive and energized by it. I still played well considering how beat I was, but it just didn't feel the same, and it sucked to suddenly feel like I wasn't IN the songs, you know? Also, I was getting very frustrated by the fact that the amp kept distorting and that I couldn't hear myself properly...the BL kinda blew me off and told me not to worry about it and "to me, it sounds fine!" He finally acknowledged that if it was bothering me, I should take the time I need to set my levels right or to move to a spot where I can hear. But the fact that I almost had to fight for that, is kinda not cool.

Then on the subway home, I finally got into it with the BL when he started calling my roommate names and saying he doesn't care what happens with the rehearsal space schedule. I said, "You obviously ARE affected by this guy and you DO care, otherwise you wouldn't keep bringing it up...your pretending to NOT care, is only causing the issue to fester instead of being addressed right away. And as long as he's helping me pay the rent so that I don't have to struggle so much financially and can continue to afford living in this city and having my life here, which includes playing in your band, don't call him an idiot...that's all I ask."

Then I pointed out that I was busting my *** to get to rehearsals, to help pay for the space, to help clean up the rehearsal recordings and organize them, etc...and to have the drummer just come rolling in an hour late without even a "hey, sorry guys", is completely inconsiderate. Why? Because we're talking 1.5 hours round-trip via subway on top of what's usually 3 hours of rehearsal and sometimes more. If we aren't playing for 3 hours, we're playing for 2 and waiting for this guy for an hour or so. In other words, I left my apartment at about 6:30 and got home at about 11:30 AND the drummer was late, so we didn't even play as much as usual. 5 hours is a lot of time!

The conversation ended there, as that was my stop, but it left a bad taste in my mouth. I got home and he left me a note on Facebook saying that he was sorry I was in such a terrible mood, and that, in regards to my roommate and this whole ugly situation with the rehearsal space which is now jeopardizing ALL of our schedules, the relationship of a band, AND a friendship: "I'm not trying to be a ball-buster with anybody... I really don't have the interest or energy for that. But I will not just go along with somebody's b.s. (especially when I feel personally disrespected by that person) just for the illusion of peace and harmony. Let me know your thoughts." Some apology, huh?

I'm sure after eating and sleeping a bit more, I might feel a little better. Regardless, I feel like writing back, "My thoughts...man...you really wanna know?!" God, this sucks. I know there will be other bands and plenty of fish in the sea and all that, but I really wasn't expecting things to reach this point right now.

Uh, so then I won the auction on a US Peavey Cirrus to make myself feel better...? Yeah! <3 Anyway. I don't know what's gonna happen with these guys, but heck, I'll play the gigs and just keep an eye out for other people to play with.
 
Well, he just talked to the drummer. How's this for passive-aggressive? The drummer...well, this is a guy who showed up almost an hour late without any explanation or acknowledgement, is not even that good, and plays/sounds like he's half-asleep. He's a nice guy, but so what, this ain't a picnic. There are a lot of nice guys who play drums, and a lot of them who play better than THIS nice guy! Check it out:

Tonight you were 45 minutes late... Without any apology or explanation! Now I don't want to bust your *****, but this can't go on. I know that it can be tricky sometimes with traffic and your work schedule, and coming in from Staten Island and all, but this has been a pretty regular occurrence since the start of this band. Perhaps I should have said something earlier, but I definitely feel the need to say it now. I really don't want you to think that this is acceptable or ok....

:insert long-winded description of us carrying our gear through the rain so we can get to rehearsal on time like normal people instead of casually strolling in an hour late:

So it feels kind of disrespectful when we're going out of our way to get there on time, and also getting there an hour earlier so as to prepare the room before you are scheduled to arrive, and then we wind up waiting another hour or so for you to show up.

Also, in the past, you've been 35-40 minutes late and THEN called to say that you're running late. It's like, Uh, yeah. No ****, dude. If you see that you're clearly not going to get there on time, please let me know BEFORE the appointed time (text or call), and tell me your ETA. I'd appreciate this consideration.

The fact is, your being repeatedly late affects us all, and it compromises the integrity of the band. It definitely inconveniences both me and Annie.


:pointless whining about how it puts us both in a bad mood when the drummer is late:

So, please let me know if there is anything I can do to support you in getting to our rehearsals on time. Again, I'm not trying to bust your balls or make you feel bad. I just need to address this issue of constant lateness because it simply does not work for the band.

Anyway, thanks for being a part of it. I appreciate your presence, effort, and enthusiasm.

And I do acknowledge that you've shown up on time (early actually) for our gigs. So, I want to say thank you for that.

Let me know your thoughts.


If I were the leader of this band, I would have ripped this guy a new one months ago instead of coddling him. I have a hard enough time standing up for MYSELF...so it really pains me when somebody else just kinda "It's cooool, maaaaaan"s their way through everything instead of just cutting to the chase. I've had to be really strict with people lately and it was hard at first, but now I realize sometimes that's just what has to happen. I guess that's why I snapped at him on the train last night. Just because I'm an agreeable, enthusiastic bandmate who knows Pro Tools inside out and has many valuable industry connections throughout the city, doesn't mean people can take advantage of my time, money, and energy.

I'll play these two upcoming gigs, but after that, I'm having a serious conversation, and there will be no "Let me know your thoughts" **** about it. I'll never forget the ONE time I was late to a session at the studio and my boss got right in my face and was like, "You get here on time or not at all! Show me that you want to be here!" It shook me up but ultimately, he's been a great guy to work for and he was right.
 
I'll never forget the ONE time I was late to a session at the studio and my boss got right in my face and was like, "You get here on time or not at all! Show me that you want to be here!" It shook me up but ultimately, he's been a great guy to work for and he was right.

When you have your discussion, I suggest you start with this^^.

Why does your boss let him slide? Every hour you lose because of people like him is an hour of your life gone forever.

Seems to me that he and the boss have some kind of agreement or something about his being late and it not being a problem. Does he supply your boss with drugs? or something else? Somethings going on....

I agree, time to move for you. Good luck.
 
Stumbo, I don't know. I haven't really thought about if anything else is going on. It's just killing me that I've put so much of myself into this and now it's crashing around my ears...I push myself so hard to play as well as I can, to be 120% present in the room when we are rehearsing. Even when it feels like I'm on autopilot, I still tune in. It takes A LOT out of me. Now, if I'm feeling good about the music, I don't mind feeling so exhausted on the subway ride home (so exhausted that once I fell asleep and almost ended up taking a trip to Canarsie at 1 am, yikes!). I'm a very kinetic, physical person...I enjoy the adrenaline rush of pushing myself to the limit. But if I'm in a bad mood because thanks to the drummer being late, *I* don't have time to dial in a good tone (I'm not the only one who uses the bass amps there, so I think others have been cranking them and abusing them in general), all the energy I exert becomes negative.

Honestly, I'm also just bored with the songs. They need serious work....a lot of them are too long with many repetitive parts...it's been a great workout for my forearms, (sup, Popeye) but that's about it. They do not give me room to grow as a musician anymore. I wrote some bass lines for them back in December that I was happy enough with then, and have reworked a few over the past couple of months, but now I fear I am becoming lazy and complacent, not getting a chance to hone my skills because I've been forced to fall back into the same routine. For a little while it was just as liberating to challenge myself to strip my lines back down and play with the space in the songs. Until I realized it was another thinly veiled way for the BL to take advantage of me. Given the short amount of time I've been playing, there is a world of difference between how I played back in the winter versus now. I'm starting to wonder if the BL feels threatened by the fact that I might just be a better musician than him...and I hate feeling like that. I want to play with people who are better than me, so I can learn and grow!

Well, speaking of, I have my first lesson tomorrow with a new instructor, big funk player, seems to have the same sensibilities as me. I'm really looking forward to getting some more formal direction again and reaching the next level of things. I think part of why I booked this lesson and upgraded my bass in the same week was because I am just trying to move forward. Not that I'm being impatient...just that it feels like for me, it's time to take those steps.
 
My patience and tolerance is probably my biggest downfall with stuff like this. I put up with more than I should...and it sucks. Especially because then I tend to just kinda snap and leave everyone wondering why I'm so angry all of a sudden. I guess it also freaks me out to think of leaving this band and then NOT BEING IN A BAND AT ALLLLL OMG for essentially the first time since August. I've gotten offers to join other projects and I have been working on my own stuff with my roommate, but none of the other bands who have approached me have really been my style. Argh.

I'm really kinda torn, though. When all I talk about is the negative side of this band, it seems obvious that I should bail, but when I listen to our recordings, I'm proud of my work and I feel like I've brought a lot of good stuff to the table...so I don't really want to walk away from that just yet because it doesn't feel like we've done enough with it yet...we've hardly even played any shows together. I'm reluctant to leave a band that is gathering momentum, even though it seems our momentum is dwindling anyway. (For the record, I absolutely refuse to join another "Um, so, I'm starting a [insert genre] band and we're looking for a bassist...?" project...nooo startups!!!)

I'm also tired of ending up in these bands that quite simply, politics and personal tastes aside, aren't even what I'm looking for after all in terms of the music, although that's really a different discussion, so I'll skip it. The more I close in on my own style and my own sense of drive and ambition as a bassist, the more critical it becomes that I find the right people. At the same time, isn't it true that playing with someone is better than playing with no one? :hmm:
 
My patience and tolerance is probably my biggest downfall with stuff like this. I put up with more than I should...and it sucks. Especially because then I tend to just kinda snap and leave everyone wondering why I'm so angry all of a sudden. I guess it also freaks me out to think of leaving this band and then NOT BEING IN A BAND AT ALLLLL OMG for essentially the first time since August. I've gotten offers to join other projects and I have been working on my own stuff with my roommate, but none of the other bands who have approached me have really been my style. Argh.

I'm really kinda torn, though. When all I talk about is the negative side of this band, it seems obvious that I should bail, but when I listen to our recordings, I'm proud of my work and I feel like I've brought a lot of good stuff to the table...so I don't really want to walk away from that just yet because it doesn't feel like we've done enough with it yet...we've hardly even played any shows together. I'm reluctant to leave a band that is gathering momentum, even though it seems our momentum is dwindling anyway. (For the record, I absolutely refuse to join another "Um, so, I'm starting a [insert genre] band and we're looking for a bassist...?" project...nooo startups!!!)

I'm also tired of ending up in these bands that quite simply, politics and personal tastes aside, aren't even what I'm looking for after all in terms of the music, although that's really a different discussion, so I'll skip it. The more I close in on my own style and my own sense of drive and ambition as a bassist, the more critical it becomes that I find the right people. At the same time, isn't it true that playing with someone is better than playing with no one? :hmm:

Dude, that's supporting your reason to leave, not stay. If the band hasn't done anything to help get your music out there then it doesn't matter how good the songs are (unless you're doing it purely for your own personal enjoyment). And even then you seem to not being enjoying your time in the band all that much, so it seems like you're getting very little, if anything, from this group. I think it's time to move on.
 
jmattbassplaya said:
Dude, that's supporting your reason to leave, not stay. If the band hasn't done anything to help get your music out there then it doesn't matter how good the songs are (unless you're doing it purely for your own personal enjoyment). And even then you seem to not being enjoying your time in the band all that much, so it seems like you're getting very little, if anything, from this group. I think it's time to move on.

Don't forget that the BL freaks out if he shares the music with people, and refuses to promote gigs because of a mythical fantasy blackout rule.

Nothing about this meets my definition of "band". It's just a couple of guys who made a hobby out obeying the BL.

Not trying to be overly harsh, but the OP came here to talk it out and that's my take. This is one rotten situation.