Dismiss Notice

Psst... Ready to join TalkBass and start posting, make new friends, sell your gear, and more?  Register your free account in 30 seconds.

When does thoery become reality II?

Discussion in 'General Instruction [BG]' started by RicPlaya, Nov 12, 2003.


  1. RicPlaya

    RicPlaya

    Apr 22, 2003
    Whitmoretucky MI
    When does thoery become reality?
    I have been playing bass for a year. I play in a cover band and learned a bunch of songs off tab. I am good considering the time I have been playing with no instruction due to my background as a drummer. I just started taking lessons mainly thoery for about three weeks, and may I add I am glad I learned off tab and can play because thoery is boring at times since I can't apply it yet. It's cool and is helping me already. My question is if you had to learn this all over again what would you do in your approach to help in this process of learning and applying thoery? I can play some scales and am learning the basics but when does the big picture become aparant? How long does it take in order to apply this knowledge to my everyday playing and what should I key on in my studies to make this process easier? If I knew then what I know now kind of thing..thanks for you help!!!!!!!!!!

    O.K. I POSTEED THIS AND WAS GETTING SOME GREAT RESULTS UNTILL THE EGOS FORCED THE MODS TO SHUT IT DOWN! Which I can't blame them one bit. I come here and ask questions because I know I can find the answer, most of you are very intelligent, skilled musicians. Instead of trying to prove your points try to help a guy out get to your level of knowledge. We were talking about some cool things, please with the mods permisson can we try this again. I realize your opinions my vary, there is no right or wrong answer since I am asking for your opinions...thanks
     
  2. Slot

    Slot

    Oct 17, 2003
    Sydney - The Shire
    The simple answer is: Everytime your playing a song, music theory is becomming reality. You may not realise yet though.

    Try and really focus on the basslines you're playing in the covers band. Learn the names of the chords, not just the basslines aswell, this well help you disect the basslines alot easier.

    For instance, you may notice that while playing over a Gmajor chord, your bass will also contain the notes of B or D, or both. B and D is the 3rd, and the 5th notes respectively of the Gmajor scale. In the G major scale, notes 1 + 3 + 5 = Gmaj (triad), so when you're constructing your own bassline , or playing someone elses pre-written bass part, you will discover that these three notes, G - B - D, or 1, 3, 5 are the strongest notes to play against that chord(Gmaj).

    So the minute you consciously recognise "oO, i just played a B, and thats the 3rd" your theoretical knowledge has been consciously applied.


    If you name one of the songs that you're playing in the band, i can help you disect the notes of the bassline, and show you how they relate to the chord and scale if you want dude. Basic theory is a relatively easy concept to grasp. Its very similar to maths in many ways. But for it to sink in faster, you really have to disect the basslines that you have been playing, and understand how the notes you are playing relate to the chords that are being played by the guitarist, or keyboardist.

    Good Luck ....hope this helped a lil
     
  3. RicPlaya

    RicPlaya

    Apr 22, 2003
    Whitmoretucky MI
    Here's a couple

    Jumpin Jack Flash Stones
    18, Alice Cooper
    Mother, Danzig
    Ziggy Stardust, Bowie
    Wicked Garden, STP
    Sex Type thing, STP
    Bomb Track, Rage
    Detroit Rock City, Kiss
    Sudated, Ramones


    If none of these work let me know some songs you suggest and I will learn it to see what you are talking about. Right now I am learning the modes and scales.
     
  4. Slot

    Slot

    Oct 17, 2003
    Sydney - The Shire
    lemme just download a couple of them, and i'll see which one will make the best example


    Get back to ya shortly[​IMG]
     
  5. stephanie

    stephanie

    Nov 14, 2000
    Scranton, PA
    Prepare to get confused b/c I have a hard time explaining myself LOL :D :

    You ask When does theory become reality?, but theory is already reality. There is theory behind everything. You are wondering when does it become your reality. You just have to learn to realize it and you've taken the first steps in taking some lessons and learning a little theory. I've been taking lessons for 3 years and I think what has helped me actually apply that, well aside from actually learning the theory, is to listen...listen to music and what you are playing, analyzing the songs you play. A lot of my time has been spent analyzing songs, figuring out what makes them work, in hopes of being inspired to write my own basslines.
     
  6. Bruce Lindfield

    Bruce Lindfield Unprofessional TalkBass Contributor Gold Supporting Member

    Ban ninestring from any threads in General Instruction or Technique!! ;)
     
  7. Bruce Lindfield

    Bruce Lindfield Unprofessional TalkBass Contributor Gold Supporting Member

    I see you're a fan of "the Matrix" as well!! :D
     
  8. cowsgomoo

    cowsgomoo gone to Longstanton Spice Museum

    Feb 8, 2003
    UK
    you'll get results from learning bass lines from records by ear, while at the same time sitting down & practicing scales, arps, modes & chord theory..

    what you'll find is that the two things complement each other... A. you'll spot the scales etc you've learned when they appear in the tunes you're playing and B. the fact that you're starting to recognize elements that were once only dry theory within the tunes you're playing, will help with the theory because it gives it a 'real world' application (like you said, theory is boring at times :))

    if i had to start again, I probably wouldn't change much, although I'd stress to myself that theory doesn't tell you the right or wrong notes to play.. it just explains what's going on... i'd tell myself it's also good to sometimes try & forget about theory and just wiggle yer fingers!
     
  9. thrash_jazz

    thrash_jazz

    Jan 11, 2002
    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
    Artist: JAF Basses, Circle K Strings
    It's a bit tricky at first, but try listening to some of your favourite tunes - ones you already know how to play well - and try to figure out what key it's in and what chords are in it.

    Once you've got that, try breaking it down even further - figure out exactly which notes are striking your fancy and why.

    This is a quick window into learning how certain intervals will sound in certain situations. Once that gets a bit more familiar, you should find that basslines are easier to create, provided you know what kind of mood you're trying to strike.

    As good ole Ed would say, it's all about playing what you hear. The trick is learning how to translate from your head to your bass; also, as your ear gets better you will "hear" better and better lines.

    Hope this helps :)
     
  10. PhilMan99

    PhilMan99

    Jul 18, 2003
    US, Maryland
    I'm glad to see this thread is back. In some of what was "cleansed" from the ealier thread, somebody mentioned that all chords can be categorized as "1", "2" or "5" chords. I found this quite significant, but equally missing in my training.

    I'll admit that I don't have a good handle on chord construction (my knowledge in this area is more from the perspective of the "modes"), but a more learned bass-player explained that a) I should know all the chord patterns and b) all chords indeed can be classified as "1", "2" or "5" chords. Note: actually he said I, V or ii chords, but the case of the letters can be significant (major/minor), and I'm not sure enough about what I'm reading to accurately convey the question without resorting to "1", "2" and "5".
     
  11. Slot

    Slot

    Oct 17, 2003
    Sydney - The Shire
    Alrighty Ricplaya, ya ready?!:p ;)

    I downloaded a few of those songs, but everyone i downloaded was either a riff, or the bassist was was just playing the root note of each chord. Even though the same rules apply to these songs, at this hour in the morning it would be easier for me to explain some things using a different song as an example...

    So - Come on down Stir it up by Bob Marley

    Here is the chord progression. I wrote out the simple arpeggios in bass cleff for you. Just incase the term arpeggio is foreign to you, it simply referes to playing a chord note by note, rather than playing all the notes together at once. In simpler terms, an arpeggio spells out the chord.

    This songs chord progression is a simple I, IV, V. Literally thousands of songs have been written based on this progression, "Wild Thing" is probably the most well known example, but that is slightly different because it go's back to the IV chord before the I....

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Slot

    Slot

    Oct 17, 2003
    Sydney - The Shire
    Anyway, as you can see, the chords used are just Major Triads(3 note chord). There isnt many things easier to play on a bass than a major triad, but trust me, these badboys will come in handy COUNTLESS times. Whether you're constructing a bassline or soloing, these three notes will be some of the 'strongest' notes available to you.(when playing over a major chord that is)



    Here is the bassline to the song, i tried to explain how each note functions in relation to the chord and its relation to the context of the song. But it was pretty hard to write anything decent when i had to write in about a square inch of space:meh: .....Excuse the dismal handwriting too, its late.

    [​IMG]

    You will notice how i said that when he played the D during the A chord that it wasnt a very strong note choice. Well dont take that as a rule set in stone. But the general "rule", is that you should try and avoid playing a 4th over a major chord. But as you saw in this example, it is possible to make it a great sounding tone, aslong as you resolve it strongly. But if you were to hang around on the D for a bar or so while the Amaj chord was being played, the D would be a fairly weak tone, it would also clash greatly with the major 3rd in the chord. So in other words, playing a 4th over a major chord is cool, but only if you resolve it strongly, or dont hang around it for too long.


    The general idea amongst all this though, is that chord tones(the notes of the arpeggio's) are "generally" the strongest and safest notes to chose when constructing a line of your own. I dont mean that you should only play these three notes(or 4 notes, or 5 notes, or 6 notes - depends on what chord is being played), im more reffering to the fact that you should try and 'anchor' your line around these tones. You can play just about any note you want, but you should try and come back to these "chord tones" whenever possible. It keeps the harmony of the song "strong".

    Long post, sorry if i made no sense:meh:
     
  13. stephanie

    stephanie

    Nov 14, 2000
    Scranton, PA
    Hehe I've never even seen the movie. :eek:

    I remember being like RicPlaya once, and not in the far past at that, wondering how all this theory that I was learning was going to be applied. I think it happened unconsciously, like one day I woke up and it all made sense. I think the key is to keep learning and keep listening. There really aren't any secrets, just to keep at it and it will come to you in time :)
     
  14. RicPlaya

    RicPlaya

    Apr 22, 2003
    Whitmoretucky MI
    Thanks Slot, thanks everyone. I will study this, and whatever else anyone else has to add. A lot of the covers I have learned are fun but don't contain a lot of technical stuff like this. But I see what you guys are saying and I just needed a direction and mindset when approaching this which now I feel I have more of. My teacher basically said the same thing, that it will come to me and I know it will. The same thing kind of happened when I learned drums. One day I woke up and could do almost anything, I could hear everything, and replicate everything. It took a few years to develop but once you got it you will never lose it. It is just a little strange to me applying it to a string instrument, thanks again!
     
  15. thrash_jazz

    thrash_jazz

    Jan 11, 2002
    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
    Artist: JAF Basses, Circle K Strings
    I'm sure they probably do in there somewhere - you just have to know how to look for it, and more importantly, how to train your ears to recognize what's going on.

    Can you tell us which covers you are working on? Perhaps those of us who are familiar with them can show you what we mean. :)
     
  16. RicPlaya

    RicPlaya

    Apr 22, 2003
    Whitmoretucky MI
    Unfortunately it's modern rock which mostly is very easy stuff, root notes not much thoery.

    Heres some that seem to have more complex bass lines of the stuff we play.

    Be like that Three Doors down
    Ziggy Stardust Bowie
    Say it aint so Weezer
    18 Alice Cooper
    Last Resort Papa Roach

    We play a bunch of other songs but they are simple on bass. My band has a bunch of roookies in it so I am taking it easy on them. I can learn songs all day but I am more concerned about getting into thoery and really taking this to the next level, any help would be great. I can read tab very easily, if you caould tab out what you are trying to say that would be awesome and much easier for me to visualize it...thanks
     
  17. RicPlaya

    RicPlaya

    Apr 22, 2003
    Whitmoretucky MI
     
  18. RicPlaya

    RicPlaya

    Apr 22, 2003
    Whitmoretucky MI
    This pertains to the above post. I am still learning how to read music and note recodnition etc. Sorry to ba a pain is it possible to get this in a tab version?
     
  19. Slot

    Slot

    Oct 17, 2003
    Sydney - The Shire
    sure man, no worries. Try and learn to read a little though man, you dont need to know how to sight read straight away, but try and learn the notes of the staff.

    Just so you know, the "spaces" between the lines are(lowest to highest), A,C,E,G(a cat eats grass(?)), and the lines on the staff are are, G,B,D,F,A(giant bears dont fondle arse)

    K, the tabs for the major triad arpeggio's are

    G--------------|----------------|----------------
    D----------------|-------------4---7-|---------6---9--
    A---------4---7---|--(D)5-----|--(E)7------
    E--(A)5---------|-----------|------------

    They're all the same shape. You can store that shape to memomory, because everytime you're in a band, and the keyboardist and/or guitarist is playing a major chord, you can look at that shape and you will immediately recognise which notes are the strong ones to aim for.

    Just so you can also learn the shape of a minor triad, i'll post that too. Cmin =

    G----------
    D---------5 = C, Eb, G
    A--3--6----
    E----------


    When playing these, keep your hand in the one position. With the Major arpeggio's, play the 1st note with your second finger. And with the minor one, you play the 1st note with your 1st finger
     
  20. RicPlaya

    RicPlaya

    Apr 22, 2003
    Whitmoretucky MI
    That's what I'm talking about Slot! thanks brother!