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Double Bass when NOT to use an amp

#22
Eric Hochberg said:
Marc, I think it's a matter of what makes you happy as a player. If you can hear yourself well enough without an amp and you don't get complaints from the other guys, and you don't have to work your hands to the bone, and you're having an enjoyable time, then don't bring the amp.

When I heard you ampless at Andy's with drums, you were getting through the mix, albeit somewhat undefined, and the club was empty and quiet. Personally, I rarely enjoy playing ampless as I like to hear my direct sound and don't like to play hard unless it's in the spirit of the music. But I have a different setup and style and probably don't pull the acoustic sound that you do.

I don't understand why this is something so many seem to strive for on this forum...:confused:
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I agree completely.

Mike Arnopol said:
For me, it's about dynamic range and sound. An unamplified bass will always SOUND better, but will it function better? When playing unamplified, even without a drummer, I find myself playing pretty much from F to FFF. Soling is always FF to FFF. So I'm limited in subtleties and nuance. When in a studio and with a great engineer and mic---that's my benchmark. I can play from pp to ff and everything in between. And have the perfect sound from my bass.
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Beautifully put. This is why I play with an amp most of the time. On the occasions where I don't need it, it's a treat.
 
#23
There was certainly a time when I didn't even own a pickup or an amplifier for that matter, were talking High School and College in the late 60's and early 70's. Most of my professional gigs were on Fender then. I tried taking my upright on a club gig with my Ampeg B15 and a Polytone Pickup, that cured me for a long time, it sounded terrible!!!
When I moved to St. Louis and started using the upright more and more, the Underwood had come along, not great but not terrible (see above) but it didn't sound anything like my instrument did acoustically. I used a Fishman Bass Blender for a while and loved the sound of the mic by itself. The Realist greatly improved amplified sound, so it sounded closer to the sound of my bass, but it still didn't sound like my bass un amplified. Then the Ehrlund came along, problem solved. With my bass and amplifiers it sounds so close that I haven't thought about it for almost a year. I worked way to hard to arrive at this point to ditch all that time, effort, and investment that's finally payed off.

Ric
 
#24
Hey Ric
Not to derail this into an Ehrlund thread, but I know that it's hard to get it to feed back, but I can't see how you wouldn't get too much drum bleed on a small stage with drums at a louder level. Any thoughts?
Maybe Hochberg and I should split the cost on one to try it out.
 
#25
Mike Arnopol said:
Hey Ric
Not to derail this into an Ehrlund thread, but I know that it's hard to get it to feed back, but I can't see how you wouldn't get too much drum bleed on a small stage with drums at a louder level. Any thoughts?
Maybe Hochberg and I should split the cost on one to try it out.
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Mike,
It's quite possible that it does, but I really don't notice it through my rig. I played on a really tight stage Friday night with two keyboards, drums, two horns, a singer and my favorite (insert tongue in cheek) congas, as played by singer.
I was using the Thunderchild 112 into a newer Walter Woods Ultra. I could hear myself fine and my hands weren't hurting by the end of the gig. Pretty amazing actually. I always setup so the E string side of instrument where the pickup is mounted is opposite the drummer.
The both the AMT and DPA mic's always picked up the drums. I was told this by different sound men at various concerts where I used them.

Ric
 
#29
I had a great pic while on tour. I was using the little EA micro 300 head. For backline, I'd always ask for a 4x10 du jour. On one gig they supplied an SVT bottom. Actually sounded great. EA was just coming out with the Micro 550 and the Doubler---too bad---would've looked great in an ad---looked like a matchbox sitting on top of an SVT bottom!
 
#32
Mike Arnopol said:
Years back, I heard Dennis Erwin playing that big ol' American Standard without an amp on a duo gig in NYC. Sounded cool enough to swear off amps forever!
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The last time I heard Dennis play was at Birdland with the Doug Raney Quartet (Jon Raney on piano, Dennis and Martin Drew on drums), he had what looked like an SM - 57 going through the house system. His sound was right where it was supposed to be, every note audible, but not overpowering. Dynamic range from pp for ballads to roaring along in the bluesy shuffles.
 
#34
I was thinking of this idea of going without the amp recently, since i might be doing some duo gigs with a pianist.. Anyway either going without an amp, or if i need a little support, maybe using my friend's little keyboard amp instead of hauling my bass amp there-- nice transparent sound from the keyboard amp. But most situations where it's necessary to use a little amp support, do you guys use a mic as well, if there's a system, or is the little boost from the amp enough?
 
#35
..late nite reading..what is FC piezo? my guys are electric violin & electric guitar... I like my ampless sound, but...they play "loud" ...so I use an amp... I think a lot of what bass players think about is... the other guy's musicianship. "If only they were more sensitive ...like me"! Well, it really is great to have a chance to play...and we're working hard to make it better. I'll include a big kudos to all you great writers on talkbass!


:cool:
 
#37
Can I just say that amps are a big improvement over not being heard? And that amps allow your sound to be heard, too, if used properly? At the same time, I've heard so many DB players sound terrible because they didn't amplify their instruments properly, that I can understand why some shy away from them. The DB is a beast to amplify, especially in some rooms. Frankly, it's one reason I'm glad I play EUB instead these days.
 
#38
"To every thing there is a season . . ."

I always bring a small combo to really quiet gigs. If I don't need it, which happens on occasion, great. Those are the most fun gigs I play.

If I expect more volume, say quartet, I move up to a head/cabinet (Clarus+ - MAS45) and I am planning to add a second cabinet for high volume gigs.
 
#39
Drums have never been a problem. It's keyboards - I play with one guy whose right hand starts at the mid point and left falls into what's left (that's an unintentional pun btw). Plus two saxes coming back through the monitors. Mike was dead right; an unamped bass will sound better but it certainly won't function better, especially in that environment.
 
#40
I played all through high school, on my little 5/8 Goetz instrument, in our 16 piece Jazz Band, and combos of various sizes. There were really no good pickups (besides a microphone) at that time. Once I hit college, the EB edged the DB out for most of the early 70's even in big band. So for 6 years, I studied classical Double Bass and

played in the school orchestras, but used my Fender Jazz and B-15N(C) on all the gigs I played, with the musical theater gigs being the only exception, until shows like Godspell came along.

When I graduated from college, and began my professional years, I didn't actually play the DB on gigs, until the Walter Woods MI-100-8's and Underwood pickups arrived on the scene in the early 80's. I can truly say that now I have a rig that sounds like my bass, is very light weight and works for 90% of all my gigs.

My 5/8 Mirecourt bass plays great, and it's well suited to my smaller hands and fingers, but it's not a really powerful instrument. Amplification is my solution to cutting through multi laminate, triple chrome plated drum kits. Even with intelligent and sensitive players, they are twice as loud as the old Rodgers, Ludwig, and Slingerland sets.

Ric
 

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