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Double Bass when NOT to use an amp

Marc Piane

Marc Piane

Jun 14, 2004
4,901
153
51
Chicago
www.marcpiane.com
#1
So I've been doing all of my drummerless gigs without an amp. I've done a few larger group (with a drummer) in smaller venues without an amp also.

Here's my problem though. I'm a chicken. I always throw my little GK in the car in case things get dicey. I'm kind of a boy scout and I want to be prepared for anything.

Now I recall when I made the switch from porkchop to DB I just went cold turkey and stopped bringing the porkchop to gigs (I was playing the weekly 4 hour jam session when I first started DB).

It's not a big deal to have the amp in the car but I want to have the balls to leave it at home.

So the question. Do I just need to go cold turkey? Especially for drummerless jobs? How do you guys decide?
 
#3
I bring an amp to gigs with a drummer. I decide based on what the concept is. If it is balls-out free jazz I bring one and crank up, turn up the highs and stop worrying out sounding "good".
I have a quartet with the great drummer Alvin Fielder, last time I played acoustic, the next gig I am using the amp, just to free up the time and get things to move around better.
I play about 90% pure acoustic, but the issue with not only acoustic but even with a "nice" warm amp sound is that it can get sluggish and weigh down the music.

It is key to be objective enough to know when the music is best served by a warm, detailed sound and when it is time for cutting sound and the ability to play as fast as the drummer.
 
#4
Marc, I think it's a matter of what makes you happy as a player. If you can hear yourself well enough without an amp and you don't get complaints from the other guys, and you don't have to work your hands to the bone, and you're having an enjoyable time, then don't bring the amp.

When I heard you ampless at Andy's with drums, you were getting through the mix, albeit somewhat undefined, and the club was empty and quiet. Personally, I rarely enjoy playing ampless as I like to hear my direct sound and don't like to play hard unless it's in the spirit of the music. But I have a different setup and style and probably don't pull the acoustic sound that you do.

I don't understand why this is something so many seem to strive for on this forum...:confused:
 
#5
I hear you Eric. That Andy's gig taught me that I could do a gig like that (quartet with drummer in a bigger room) without an amp but I really had to work quiet a bit harder and there where trade-offs (especially with soloing) that I'm not sure I liked. It was a good learning thing for me and showed me that I like an amp with a drummer.

I do like the tone without an amp though too. I do a fair amount of duo or drummerless trio stuff and I feel like, at least in smaller/quieter rooms, an amp is really just used to beef up the sound a bit. It seems, in these cases, the amp is more of a security blanket... at least for me.
 
#6
fingers said:
I do like the tone without an amp though too. I do a fair amount of duo or drummerless trio stuff and I feel like, at least in smaller/quieter rooms, an amp is really just used to beef up the sound a bit. It seems, in these cases, the amp is more of a security blanket... at least for me.
Click to expand...

I think the sound of your bass is being heard out front in those situations, a bit of amp just makes it easier for you to hear.
 
#7
For me, it's about dynamic range and sound. An unamplified bass will always SOUND better, but will it function better? When playing unamplified, even without a drummer, I find myself playing pretty much from F to FFF. Soling is always FF to FFF. So I'm limited in subtleties and nuance. When in a studio and with a great engineer and mic---that's my benchmark. I can play from pp to ff and everything in between. And have the perfect sound from my bass. When playing unamplified, I find that I need to crank up my strings past the string height (so I can play harder without clanking) where my bass has the best combination of the type of attack and sustain that I like. I remember hearing Christian McBride years ago for the first time. Opened for us with a trio with Benny Green. Re20---the whole retro thing. He sounded great---big room at the North Sea---great PA. But even in a trio, when things got dense and loud, the drums bleed made it really hard to hear what he was doing. And I later heard him with his group----I could really only hear him clearly at lower levels. He's a killin' player and I respect that esthetic of bass playing. I HATE amplified piezo sound. Which is why I've busted my ass to get the best sound (with a FC piezo) that I can. Again, using my best recorded sound (and feel) as a benchmark, I feel that my obsessiveness has paid off. At least for me. I've been doing a project with my own trio (pretty loud fusion levels---electric guitar and drums) using a new binaural recording technique which allows us to get one of the best recorded sounds that I've gotten---and with a single binaural setup. Very audiophile stuff. My point is that my sound that is being recorded is pretty much strictly my amp sound. And I was surprised (and delighted) that everyone there (musicians and engineer---and me) thought that it sounded extraordinarily close to my best studio mic sound---to be honest, I was shocked. It's done in conjunction with video---I'll see if I can get permission to post it here. I'm not saying that my way is the right way---it just works for me And I can use my whole dynamic range and nuance. Do I prefer to play unamplified or with a mic in a studio? Yup. But in terms of the compromise between asthetics and function---I'm happy. And at my age, I'm sick of my fingers f--ing hurting. Maybe it's just about old age setting in.
 
#8
man, this is largely a Chicago thread---Marc knows what Eric and I are thinking anyway! Another thing---I've fallen prey to my criticisms as stated above. I really liked that dark Marc Johnson with a mic sound. Dark Italian sound with enough center to pop through. So with my piezo I'd roll off too much mids and highs. I'd hear my sound when setting up and think that it was the s#@t. It sounded awesome when I was soloing. (well, the sound anyway) But as the band cranked up I'd have trouble cutting through. I remember when Eric heard me when I first got my Golia a few years back. He said "it sounds great, but it's really dark". I hated the type of mids and highs I'd get from my pickup and speakers. So I'd roll too much off. I've had the new Thunderchild cab and the clouds have parted. I'm using a lot more mids and highs because they're the same type of mids and highs that I'd get from a mic. It turns out (for me) that the wanky mids and highs I hated that I attributed to the piezo was more in the speaker. So now I feel that I'm getting the sound I like, but that I'm more present in the mix----in a good way.
 
#9
Ha. We should just get together for a beer.

Since I've started using gut I've really fallen for the punch of the note. The Realist does a pretty good job of amplifying that but there is still a little something missing. I have been running a mic-only through my Clarus into a little Yamaha pa cab I have and been really happy. When I need just a little extra it is as close to transparent as I've found.

When I need to get louder I'm happy with my rig. I actually had a guy ask me 'if' I was using an amp. He just gushed about my tone.

Maybe I'm just enamored with the setup and breakdown time;)

BTW Mike. You have my favorite live tone of anyone in town. There. I said it.
 
#10
fingers said:
So I've been doing all of my drummerless gigs without an amp. I've done a few larger group (with a drummer) in smaller venues without an amp also.

Here's my problem though. I'm a chicken. I always throw my little GK in the car in case things get dicey. I'm kind of a boy scout and I want to be prepared for anything.

Now I recall when I made the switch from porkchop to DB I just went cold turkey and stopped bringing the porkchop to gigs (I was playing the weekly 4 hour jam session when I first started DB).

It's not a big deal to have the amp in the car but I want to have the balls to leave it at home.

So the question. Do I just need to go cold turkey? Especially for drummerless jobs? How do you guys decide?
Click to expand...

When I first started not using an amp, I would still bring it, because people still wanted to see it. When I would show up without an amp, people would get nervous, especially if it was an awkward sounding room. So, I would bring my amp, plug into it and just cut the speaker off (it was aGK MBwhatevercombo). No one said boo. Then, I stopped plugging it in, and still no one complained. So, after that, I just stopped using it. So that's how I recommend you go about it. Slowly testing the water.

The first time I play with new people, they can be apprehensive, but I've yet to encounter a room in town that I can't muscle over. And if it's too loud, there's usually a PA.
 
#11
When not to use an amp? When the music is better without it. Use the amp if and when it makes things better. Personally I love to play unamped, but realistically there are very few gigs where going ampless is benificial to me for the reasons mentioned in the other posts.
Nathan is able to cut through quite well un amped, even with a big band (I've heard him do it!), but as his last sentance states he has to "muscle over" some rooms and that is something I've become either too old or too lazy to want to do night after night.
 
#14
I really wish sometimes that I didn't have to cover as wide a variety of styles on DB. To use guts and a mic--- I'd be in heaven. Now I'm getting motivated to get bass # 2 up and running. I had an experience subbing on Eric's gig. My FC crapped out and I grabbed some crap mic they had and shoved it under my bridge and plugged into the Doubler. Not a quite a stellar Mic sound, but the most fun I've had on the gig. Walking felt great. When the situation allows for a Mic there's nothing that can beat it. As long as it's not an RE 20 on an f hole.
 

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