Double Bass when NOT to use an amp

[Ric Vice]

John Clayton likes to tell a story about the first time Ray Brown went to Japan. Bass players over there tried to emulate his sound on records by jacking up the string height on their basses and pulling the snot out of the strings. They were amazed to find that this was not the way Ray did it. According to John, and I find it to be true, having a big, focused unamplified tone has more to do with the left hand than the right. To get the greatest possible resonance from the string you have to make sure it is completely anchored to the fingerboard.

I've had the fortunate opportunity to talk with John several times over the span of my career. I actually subbed for him

at Just Jazz here in St. Louis, when due to prior commitments John, and Jeff Hamilton had to return to L.A. in the middle of a four day engagement with Diana Krall.

The first time I met John was at Ball State University, when he did a workshop for the bassists. During the seminar, he he used my B-15N to play through. Later when he recorded one of his first live albums with Monty Alexander on BASF, the engineers took a line of his own B-15 and, due to the inadequacies of the recorded bass

sound, he decided to avoid amplifiers from then on.

John's path led him to play the instrument as it was intended. He played in the Concertgebow Orchestra and studied with Murray Grodner at I.U. Way before Wynton Marsalis began to tout his diatribes, on why bass players should play sans amps. John had actually been doing it for many years. So I applaud John, who in his

typical gentle manner, made his point eloquently as he always does. Whether or not one follows Johns path, is a matter of choice. He's so gifted, and sincere, that sound technicians do their best to reproduce his sound through a mic at larger venues. John's stature affords him that treatment.

Ric

I do this by playing on my finger tips, not the pads, and pulling back with my arm, not squeezing with the thumb (one more reason I sit when I play). I know you get more overtones playing on the pads of your fingers but the sound does not travel as well. I was never able to play gigs without an amp before this masterclass, even with sensitive musicians. Those gigs still happen rarely and I always have an amp in the car but this was a major turning point for me

.

+1 IHMO, IME it isn't necessary to play without an amp. I applaud those who do, and those who don't, just as long as they have a great sound. The character of the instrument can be achieved either way. My hands and fingers are to small to play way up on the tips.

Ric

Usual disclaimers: YMMV, IME, IMHO, etc. [/QUOTE]

 

[Don Sibley]

+1 IHMO, IME it isn't necessary to play without an amp.

I don't think it is necessary either, just fun.

Again, I only attempt to play sans amp on a few, rare gigs and under the right conditions with the right musicians.

 

[Nathan Parker]

I think you learn the most about playing without an amp by playing without an amp. All these anecdotes are great, but I doubt they will do you much good when you're playing "Dancing Men" with a big band. At some point you just have to learn by doing.

 

[Will Kelly]

Just set yer bass up like Don, here, and let her rip. You won't need an amp, trust me. I think Bob Haggart told him to set his bass up like that.

 

[Don Sibley]

Just set yer bass up like Don, here, and let her rip.

If I played a gig like that I wouldn't be able to pickup a pencil for a week much less play my bass. The bass can be a dangerous instrument if not approached with care.

 

[Phil Smith]

I think you learn the most about playing without an amp by playing without an amp. All these anecdotes are great, but I doubt they will do you much good when you're playing "Dancing Men" with a big band. At some point you just have to learn by doing.

I had the opportunity to check out the Clayton-Hamilton Big Band at David Gage's shop and the bassist used an amp. I also saw John Clayton sit in with the Dizzy Gillispie All Stars and he used an amp. I think what you will learn is that playing with a big band unamplified doesn't work all that well.

 

[Don Sibley]

I think what you will learn is that playing with a big band unamplified doesn't work all that well.

True dat! I did play a Duke Ellington tribute concert in college where everyone, including guitar, was unamplified. Ground rules for dynamic adjustment were established at the beginning of the rehearsal cycle. We had a great time and learned a lot.

 

[remainthesame]

So what happens when you build up the courage to leave it home and it turns out that you needed it? I don't understand how being prepared is a problem.

I assume you're playing with other people? What will they think when you cant play because you need an amp for the particular venue? Won't they get upset that their band mate let them down?

Do what makes you happy, if you don't need it then you don't need it. I'm just trying to understand why its a problem to have it nearby in case you need it.

 

[Nathan Parker]

I had the opportunity to check out the Clayton-Hamilton Big Band at David Gage's shop and the bassist used an amp. I also saw John Clayton sit in with the Dizzy Gillispie All Stars and he used an amp. I think what you will learn is that playing with a big band unamplified doesn't work all that well.

It works just fine.

 

[Ric Vice]

I had the opportunity to check out the Clayton-Hamilton Big Band at David Gage's shop and the bassist used an amp. I also saw John Clayton sit in with the Dizzy Gillispie All Stars and he used an amp. I think what you will learn is that playing with a big band unamplified doesn't work all that well.

I wasn't aware that John used an amp with his Big Band, but it makes perfect sense. When I've seen him with smaller groups here in St. Louis he's used a microphone.

 

[Don Sibley]

I'm just trying to understand why its a problem to have it nearby in case you need it.

You articulated this point better than I did.

Why does it have to be all or nothing?

 

[Chris Symer]

I am going to make the assumption that most of the people who have posted here have their basses set up in a fairly "modern" way. Most with steel strings and a few with gut but nearly all with setups that are geared towards ease of play and/or tone over the full range of the instrument as opposed to a set up for maximum volume at the expense of everything else.

Playing unamplified in a big band is not my cup of tea. For that matter, with a few exceptions, I don't enjoy playing in big bands even when I use an amp, but that is a different issue. For most of us, with the instruments and setups that we have, playing un-amped in a big band would be very unrewarding personally and probably not work out too well professionally either. However......

I have personally heard (yes, heard!) Nathan playing without an amp, in a big band, quite often. I don't think he gets any more complaints for being too quiet than I do (and I use an amp in those situations). In fact one night the tenor player right in front of him complained about the bass being too loud. Although I am sure that if Nate could play anywhere near in tune that wouldn't have been such an issue. (What are friends for, eh Nate?)

The volume is there to be had, but sacrifices need to be made in other areas. I find Nate's bass very unrewarding to play. It is brutal on the hands and lacks subtlety IMO. You are not going to play a graceful and melodic solo in thumb position, ever. Nate does play wonderful and interesting rhythmic solos in the lower register however... To my ears the arco sound is crude at best (gut is usually that way to my ears, and having the string height way up only exaggerates it). However it is capable of making a very loud noise. Quarter notes punch out with amazing power. The result is a very old school sound. Nate sounds fantastic on it and he has no shortage of work around here, in a town with far more good bass players than are really needed. In his case playing with an amp would be almost entirely counter productive.

 

[Ric Vice]

It works just fine.

+1-1
It certainly can work, but for me it depends on the set of circumstances surrounding a particular Big Band, what charts they play, and how fine tuned they are.

Usually, if I sub for one our local, 16 piece jazz bands, I take my Clevenger EUB. It's just easier to deal with, then all the constraints that occur, when you get a Double Bass in the proximity of that many other instruments. I'm fortunate to have that instrument, because it really sounds like a DB. I have played here with a smaller 12 piece jazz orchestra, where the leader is also writes all the charts.
In that instance I can use my Mirecourt DB, because the charts are musical, intelligent, and subtile. The writing allows for the range and sound of the bass. In that setting it would be easier to go un amplified if I choose to, provided their was FOH support.

When we wax rhapsodic about famous players in big bands, perhaps we forget that even in the case of someone like Jimmy Blanton, there is some evidence that Duke Ellington placed him close to the solo mic in big venues, so the bass would speak out. There are a few pictures that confirm this.

Ric

 

[Ed Fuqua]

When we wax rhapsodic about famous players in big bands, perhaps we forget that even in the case of someone like Jimmy Blanton, there is some evidence that Duke Ellington placed him close to the solo mic in big venues, so the bass would speak out. There are a few pictures that confirm this.

Ric

Big venues, like OUTSIDE, right?

 

[Chris Symer]

Ric, I entirely agree with your approach to playing with a big band. It is also obvious that an un-amplified bass (no matter how it is set up) will never be the loudest instrument in a big band. It's just that acoustically, that is how it works out. But that blend is what the band actually sounds like in " real" life. The mic placement in those photos can also prove that a.) trumpet sections are too loud; and b.) an Alto Saxophone solo is the quietest part in an ensemble.
If some one wants to play with a sound as similar as possible to what was recorded back then, clearly using an amplifier would be putting you one step farther away from that. Me? I prefer the sound and ease of play with my set up the way it is and using an amp when ever I want to. But I have found Nate to be very stubborn in his refusal to acknowledge the superiority of that approach.

 

[Nathan Parker]

Oh Nathan of last night, there's so much I want to warn you about.

I'm not advocating that everybody use no amps, or everybody use amps all the time, or anything in between. I don't care what anybody else does.

Just know that using an amp or not using an amp is not going to get you into or out of great musical experiences. The ******* drummer that insists on burying everybody with his best Tony Williams impression is not going to suddenly become a better person because you turned your volume knob to 11. Nor will he calm himself if you come in with no amp and some gut strings doing your best Oscar Pettiford impression.

I figure most people here know this, but I wanted to type it out because if I didn't I would have to pay attention to my children. And no good can come of that.

 

[Nathan Parker]

And Chris, I really appreciate your backhanded compliments. It means alot coming from a guy who plays an incorrectly tuned travel bass on most of his gigs. It really does.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Now now fellas. Lets not get too testy here - this is something that every player has to make their own decisions and we justify them in our own ways.

Personally, it all boils down to what is needed by the music. What I hear in my head comes out as being texturally different than what I think most people want. I side more with Chris, and more recently, I've wanted actually something more electric sounding while still staying as acoustic as possible. I used to have a more thumpy setup, even dabbled with gut but during performances and sessions I was left a little dissatisfied. The thumb was great, but it wasn't what my inner ear was calling for to be heard in the mix!

Just yesterday I was about to fiddle with the setup to switch out the Labella Tapewounds for something else. I played the bass one last time and I couldn't do it. Those tapewounds feel so right.

Maybe if I was pro and had time to build up the musculature and technique to play with high action, I would by at this time, it's not what my inner muse is calling for. IMO, you should play however you need to, in whatever way that feeds your soul. After all, that's probably the best way to reach out to an audience - displaying your passion for the music.

 

[Ric Vice]

Big venues, like OUTSIDE, right?

Ed,
Actually, there's another shot of Blanton, inside where he's very close to the microphone as well. I'll see if I can track that one down.

Ric

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Although I am sure that if Nate could play anywhere near in tune that wouldn't have been such an issue. (What are friends for, eh Nate?)

I prefer the sound and ease of play with my set up the way it is and using an amp when ever I want to. But I have found Nate to be very stubborn in his refusal to acknowledge the superiority of that approach.

And Chris, I really appreciate your backhanded compliments. It means alot coming from a guy who plays an incorrectly tuned travel bass on most of his gigs. It really does.

Awww, I sense a ManDate coming on. And it's not even spring! Young love conquers all...