Where do I look for that dark, deep tone?

[Semion N.]

Hello everyone.

This is my first post so I hope I'm not breaking any rules.

I feel that I'm reaching a point where my current Bass does not provide the sound I'm looking for. I'm looking for an instrument change/upgrade, but have no idea where to look, so I hope you guys can point me in the right direction.

A little background:

My first bass was an Ibanez acoustic one, and I bought it because I wasn't sure I'd enjoy learning to play Bass, so I didn't want to spend money on Amps. Quite a good decision in retrospect, since acoustic basses are like a Bassist's Weight Gym, but eventually the horrible sustain killed it (and the fact I changed the strings to flatwounds didn't help things). The string change was because the original bronze strings were very very bright, and from the get-go I was looking for those dark, deep tones that do not stand out of the mix, but instead touch you through the floor, you know? Like give the whole song a solid background to stand on. This guitar, however - whenever you'd play an open E for instance, the base sound would die out and only the octave harmonic would stay. And this would happen after a few seconds at best.

At the moment I'm using a Cort A4, because I thought getting an Active bass was a good idea. Now, it's a great guitar, but the sound is kind of generic, and it also has this octave harmonic thing. So I'm looking for something darker with less interference. So, probably something like a passive P-bass? But which one?

To make this a little clearer, I can say that I went to a guitar shop once to try stuff out, and this Firebird knocked me out of my seat - but for the life of me I don't remember what kind of firebird it was! Is there anything specific about them that I should look for?

Thank you

 

[Gorn]

What's an octave harmonic thing?

 

[Semion N.]

What's an octave harmonic thing?

Well, imagine that you play open E. After a few seconds, the basic, 40Hz E disappears and what remains is the octave, 80Hz E.

 

[Gorn]

Well, imagine that you play open E. After a few seconds, the basic, 40Hz E disappears and what remains is the octave, 80Hz E.

Have you changed your strings recently?

 

[GretschWretch]

1) My experience ha been that an acoustic bass guitar with flatwounds produces a somewhat unfocused, tubby sound. For deep & dark, I suggest nylon tapewounds.

2) The "octave thing" to me suggests one type of dead spot, specifically the type where shortly after the note is plucked the fundamental diminishes or disappears entirely and only the harmonics continue to ring. Never heard of this happening on the open E, though. It's more of a G-string affliction.

 

[Semion N.]

Have you changed your strings recently?

This happened from the get-go, with new strings. I suspected my amp, but when I tried it on other amps it was the same effect.

1) My experience ha been that an acoustic bass guitar with flatwounds produces a somewhat unfocused, tubby sound. For deep & dark, I suggest nylon tapewounds.

2) The "octave thing" to me suggests one type of dead spot, specifically the type where shortly after the note is plucked the fundamental diminishes or disappears entirely and only the harmonics continue to ring. Never heard of this happening on the open E, though. It's more of a G-string affliction.

1. So you suggest it's only the strings? I'm using the acoustic only to practice, so I'm asking for my electric.

2. Yes, this is exactly what happens. On my guitar though, it happens on all strings, and felt the most on the E (probably because it's the note with the worst sustain).

 

[The Chuck]

I nice P bass would give you some good deep tone. You also need to consider a cab that will produce those lows you are looking for.

 

[Semion N.]

I nice P bass would give you some good deep tone. You also need to consider a cab that will produce those lows you are looking for.

Yeah, I realize there is the cab issue, but let's put that aside for a moment. Assuming I have access to good amplification - do you have any brand recommendation, or specific pickups that may be good, etc? And are P-Basses the only solutions to this? What about the huge pickups the [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] has? I don't favor Cort by the way, it's just a company whose products I'm familiar with.

I'm asking because I feel like there are alot of generic guitars that are called "P-Bass" that may sound the same to me, but maybe you know something I don't.

 

[The Chuck]

Yeah, I realize there is the cab issue, but let's put that aside for a moment. Assuming I have access to good amplification - do you have any brand recommendation, or specific pickups that may be good, etc? And are P-Basses the only solutions to this? What about the huge pickups the [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] has? I don't favor Cort by the way, it's just a company whose products I'm familiar with.

Sorry, I'm not familiar with the Cort. I also have a Fender MIA Jazz and I can get some phat low tone out of that too. Your amp and amp setting as well as your cab are going to be 2/3 or more of your sound.

My P bass has the Pure Vintage 63 PUs in it. Really good lows and smooth mids and highs IMO. I use an Ampeg PF-800 into a Hartke 4.5XL with the 5 inch driver disconnected. it can produce some really deep bass and pretty loud volumes if need be.

 

[1stnamebassist]

Nylon Tapewounds for the acoustic will help. The Firebird your referring to I'm not familiar with, but maybe you are thinking of the Thunderbird? The Epiphone Classic 4 is a great Thunderbird for low money if that's what you were talking about. A Pbass can give you the sound your looking for, but it would work best with tapewounds or flatwounds. Labella comes to mind for flats, D'addario for tapes. The best thing, which I own, that puts out a ton of bottom end would be my Kala fretless mahogany Ubass with the stock Paehoehoe strings. Their are plenty of copies of similar instruments out there now for less than the Kala. They also have solidbody versions also if you want that look, and also Goldtone makes a nice solidbody as well as hollowbody acoustic with preamp in both 23" and 25" scale lengths. The Kala is about 19" scale. I haven't played anything that pumps out bottom like my Kala. My house will shake and windows rattle with that little monster! The fretted one's sometimes suffer from intonation issues, but the fretless is very easy to work with, with a very short learning curve.

 

[BrewsterRooster]

I'll throw out a second vote for J-bass, and if cost is a concern, try a MIM Fender. Passive will keep the cost down. The trick to getting the nice deep subs is running both pickups wide open or, at very least, running the neck pickup wide open. A greater or lesser amount of the bridge pickup will typically vary that bottom-heavy sound somewhere between "round" and "upright-ish." This is not to say you can't get good subs out of a P, because you can, but IMO a J pickup configuration is ideal for dialing up that big, smooth bottom I think you're driving at. P's produce a very distinctive sound that's probably better known for its percussive attack, though I've played a few hotrodded P's with subs that made the earth move.

The nice thing about either design is that they're available by the bazillions. Very easy to track down and demo to see if you like them or not.

 

[One Drop]

You probably will be happy going for any bass with a solid low end compared to your current acoustic, and don't need an instrument that has an extreme low end. What really sounds solid and supporting in most mixes is all happening in the low mids anyway.

I think any standard passive P with flats or rounds might get you where you want, but hold off making a judgment until you have played with a drummer and guitars, because that's where the magic lies.

These are clichés but IMO are sound advice for a beginning bassist.

 

[matante]

Ive never played a bass that i thought lacked in useful lows with the exception of my experiment with active EMG pickups.

Any bass will do if you solo the neck pickup, play near the neck, and roll off the treble if necessary. Also make sure you're using the right strings for tone you're after.

 

[Matt Dean]

I think you'd be better off looking at amps or EQ pedals.

 

[Anachronism]

Rickenbacker 4004, especially a stock 4004Ci

 

[Joebone]

Fascinating post - Welcome, Semion N., to the problem of realizing the sound you hear in your head!

You speak of "deep" and "dark" as goals. These are very tricky words, and there are several layers to the multi-bulbed onion of tone and of timbre.

First, contemplate the timbre of the axe you have, with existing strings. Set your tone controls at center or neutral. If you move your right hand from the base of the neck to the bridge, and many places in between, what are you hearing?

If you hit harder or softer, with fingertips or with more finger-flesh, what are you hearing?

If you can't hear the sound you want with those adjustments, then consider playing with the tone controls on the bass. I don't suggest playing with the amp controls - keep those neutral/flat/centered as well.

So now you've worked the timbre of your axe - its native voice - and tone, via manipulation of tone controls.

Where to go from there?

It's a huge universe!

Pickups, preamps, string choices, fretboard wood, body wood(guessing that Thunderbird you dug had a mahogany body, which has a distinctive timbre leaning toward the dark side), (variety and density both for the wood), body size and neck wood will all come into play.

Check out some players who you dig. What are they using?

When you say "deep," do you mean deep in the sense of low frequency extension, reaching to or below the bass drum? (Beware, there…)

When you say "dark," are you talking about a less percussive attack, the absence of higher harmonics, both of the above, or something else still? Is "dark" actually "smooth," in the sense of a uniformity that comes through compression?

Overall, if you could blow a weekday morning at a GC when the wankers are not out, and try out a bunch of different basses through the same amp, you might get a better handle on what you are thinking about or looking for (although guessing that this experience won't provide guidance on the difference between flat wound and round wound strings).

I wish you luck. This is a long-term search. I think I'm just about sorted out now (and my own goals are dark, deep, fast but fat), but it's taken years, and in and out of a lot of instruments…and here we're only talking tone, but you also may wish to consider ergonomics as an element of what works best for you.

Best of luck - the journey is the destination!

 

[jjmuckluckjr]

Look. Nothing up my sleeves and presto, deep, dark magical tone. We're does it come from? Why my hands of course.

 

[tfer]

I have no idea why any acoustic bass comes with bronze strings... Manufacturers need to start breaking the acoustic mould, and sending every bass out with tapes.

As for your Cort; if it has active electronics, there is probably no reason to buy another bass. Use the a flats from your acoustic when you replace them, or buy a second set of tapes. Then get your hands on an inexpensive preamp/tone controller, like the Hartke Bass Attack, and play around with those.

Your next investment should be an good amp and cabinet.

 

[devnulljp]

Get rid of the Cort. Buy A Fender Precision. Put on a set of Labella flats.
Even a Squire CV Precision would be more in line with what you're talking about.
Done!

 

[SirMjac28]

First welcome to Talk Bass, second ignore that tone in your head it's nothing but expensive trouble, third go over to your nearest Guitar Center those guys and gals should be able to fix you right up with the perfect bass and amp to get you the tone you need.