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where do you sit on ancient astronaut theory?

In short, I believe what 96TBird is talking about it really not that far fetched and could possibly be an acceptable argument.

It's certainly a lot more plausible than aliens visiting our forefathers. Reminds me of those crop circle enthusiasts who find it more plausible the circles were caused by aliens rather than the people who admitted they did it as a prank. Absolutely silly.
 
Aside from the desire to claim land from someone or to scorn person cause they felt wronged somehow... I believe ergot is another theory behind the mass hysteria of the Salem Witch Trial epidemic. So ergot was a possible prevalent issue up until at least 1692.

As for most the world having access to opiates... Here we have a nice little bottle of....

Link Removed



DR POPPY'S WONDER ELIXER WITH CANNABIS EXTRACT!

Yup! Our lovely families during the 1930s were loving this stuff! Just read the bottle! One glass a day is all you need! It is great for colds through arthritis!

Not to mention, after this became illegal, and modern medicine was on the rise with prescription drugs we come across a little yellow pillow named Benzodiazepines! (I believe it is this one) This was abused by a lot of house wives/mothers to get through their day until it was realized how fatal these drugs can be in high, and abused dosages. Just listen to The Rolling Stone's - Mother's Little Helper for a reference.


In short, I believe what 96TBird is talking about it really not that far fetched and could possibly be an acceptable argument.

I still think it's wrong for the government to tell the people what is "Good for them" and what is "Bad for them". It should be left up to the person to determine whether or not it is right for them to take it or not - NOT the government.

Wow I'll probably get crucified for that..Oh well..
 
However, I introduced the expert/layman discussion to correct what I saw as a misleading trend in the answers, to the effect that reasonable people don't believe anything unless it is scientifically proven to them. I don't think that's true or even being particularly honest with ourselves. Reasonable belief formation is a much broader process than mere scientific method, which is only usable under very controlled conditions. Beliefs reasonably formed may turn out to be mistaken, of course, but that doesn't mean that they were not reasonably formed in the first place. Very smart people believed in the Ptolemaic universe, after all.

That's cool. I think that how we assess truth-claims is probably a complex and fascinating subject of study. We humans possess elaborate mental machinery devoted to social interactions in which people are trying to mislead one another. I'm sure the first prehistoric tribe that invented "expert opinion" quickly developed ways for laypeople to deal with expert opinion.

If I buy a bag of beans marked as containing 16 ounces, I don't weigh it, and I don't trace the calibration of my kitchen scale to fundamental standards.

On the other hand, if I buy a bass amp marked as putting out 160 Watts, I definitely measure it. :eyebrow:
 
Valiant Bandit said:
I still think it's wrong for the government to tell the people what is "Good for them" and what is "Bad for them". It should be left up to the person to determine whether or not it is right for them to take it or not - NOT the government.

Wow I'll probably get crucified for that..Oh well..

Well, thanks for that. I wouldn't call it an argument, but I know Europe spent a lot of time drunk and stoned ever since they went to the opium countries. Before that they were just drunk. I can't help feeling that researchers shy away from anything in this vein because of how puritanical western culture has become in the last century since learning the true evils of substance use. They are reluctant to go there. Possibly it doesn't occur to them at all. Again, mere speculation.

edit; shoot, wrong quoted post ^, but I like that post.
 
Well, thanks for that. I wouldn't call it an argument, but I know Europe spent a lot of time drunk and stoned ever since they went to the opium countries. Before that they were just drunk. I can't help feeling that researchers shy away from anything in this vein because of how puritanical western culture has become in the last century since learning the true evils of substance use. They are reluctant to go there. Possibly it doesn't occur to them at all. Again, mere speculation.

edit; shoot, wrong quoted post ^, but I like that post.

Meh, Western society is still just as drugged up as ever. I saw a recent study that showed that a majority of American citizens are regular drug users, whether illegal, or legal drugs.
 
That's cool. I think that how we assess truth-claims is probably a complex and fascinating subject of study. We humans possess elaborate mental machinery devoted to social interactions in which people are trying to mislead one another. I'm sure the first prehistoric tribe that invented "expert opinion" quickly developed ways for laypeople to deal with expert opinion.

I've been trying to speak to this topic. My basic point is that due to a paradigm shift in epistemic methodology experts in the scientific era are more credible than experts, say, pre-Enlightenment. The advent of modern science represents a major shift in the machinery of knowledge production and dissemination. Instead of arguments from authority, appeals to mysticism, etc... we now have a systematized, tested, rational, empirically-based source of knowledge about the world. Correspondingly, with the development of printing and other forms of mass distribution, literacy and overall knowledge and understanding has also improved tremendously among laypeople, at least in the Western world. Thus, there are stronger epistemic reasons to accept expert testimony today than previous points in history. Of course, today there are also "experts" on ancient astronauts, so a certain degree of critical thinking must come to bear regarding the credibility of so-called "experts" in such domains. Given the background knowledge and understanding most people have today, such claims ought to easily be assessed as dubious. In earlier times, however, that critical background information which is used as a basis for critical assessment was not available to laypeople.
 
Correspondingly, with the development of printing and other forms of mass distribution, literacy and overall knowledge and understanding has also improved tremendously among laypeople, at least in the Western world.

I don't get that impression. I think laypeople are so overwhelmed by technology and science that they are turning to religion and other superstitions more than ever in an effort to feel like they know something. I think the masses are alienated by their inability to understand what science is telling them, and they are turning to the comfort of myth and mysticism, where nothing has to be validated by facts or rationality.
 
Munjibunga said:
I don't get that impression. I think laypeople are so overwhelmed by technology and science that they are turning to religion and other superstitions more than ever in an effort to feel like they know something. I think the masses are alienated by their inability to understand what science is telling them, and they are turning to the comfort of myth and mysticism, where nothing has to be validated by facts or rationality.

Or maybe science is just too cold and lifeless and humans want emotional stimulation.
 
Or maybe science is just too cold and lifeless and humans want emotional stimulation.

I disagree. Science can connect with people on a very emotional and spiritual level if they want it to. People just turn to religion because it's easier to understand, it makes the person believing in it feel better about themselves and their situation, and because it promises them that no matter what happens everything is going to be alright in the end.

If you want emotional stimulation, just look at the statistics behind how unlikely the chances of life and your own personal existence really are. If you understand the figures behind it, you'll quickly realize just how precious life is and how much you should be thankful for each day you have on this rock.
 
I don't get that impression. I think laypeople are so overwhelmed by technology and science that they are turning to religion and other superstitions more than ever in an effort to feel like they know something. I think the masses are alienated by their inability to understand what science is telling them, and they are turning to the comfort of myth and mysticism, where nothing has to be validated by facts or rationality.

Some laypeople may do that.... However, for many phenomena, scientific explanations are so well known that it would be rather difficult to replace them with mysticism. Earthquake? Plate tectonics or angry spirits? Very few people are likely to make the same appeals to mysticism as the ancients. Today, appeals to mysticism generally occur in domains where knowledge is less certain (like questions of meaning or ultimate origin), or where people have an emotional bias to deny the truth. In short, I'd suggest that the Enlightenment has brought about a major shift in human thinking... though not universal in scope.
 
I disagree. Science can connect with people on a very emotional and spiritual level if they want it to. People just turn to religion because it's easier to understand...

Hmmm... perhaps superficially... but if looked at with any degree of seriousness mystical claims are confusing and practically incomprehensible. While science may be complex and difficult to comprehend, at least it talks about stuff that can be observed and quantified. To me, one of the purposes that science serves is to demystify reality. Doesn't make it any less fascinating though....
 
Thanks for flaming my suggestion then on the basis of not being "in your expertise". You have heard of rye bread fever? Ergot. It affected entire villages before the advent of fungicides. They kept eating it because it was their crop for the year. How do you know how prevalent ergot was at any point on time? It's not now because of fungicides. I happen to know first hand the fungus troubles of farmers right here where I live. The chemicals can't keep up. Their crops are rotting as we speak, right In the bins. Millions in cash crop being lost in my community.

You don't think that people could adjust to a constant ingestion of a substance, yet could adjust to living in Machu Pichu where you or I would pass out after carrying a sack of corn a few hundred feet? Consider also that until the early twentieth century opiates were legal, available and in common use the world over. Somehow they got things done.

It was merely a speculation, but you know that the ruling class were into halucigens for religious purposes and I suggest they would indulge regularly as was their province to do so. They would also be the ones in charge of art and architecture. Just because possibly no one has put this thought forward nor researched it is no reason to dismiss it out of hand. I find it silly that researchers mention the use of drugs in ancient culture in passing but never consider it on a deeper level. They and you may disagree and poo poo it out of hand, but I still never have seen a lot of interest in asking these questions and I wonder why?

The Roman emporers were most certainly winos and they conquered much of Europe and the middle East. What else were they on? Please enlighten me "not my expertise".

If my expression of skepticism counts as "flaming," you've had a very sheltered life on the internet. Acknowledging that ergotism is not my field of expertise is a way of inviting those who can correct my gaps of knowledge to do so.

I'm not sure what culture's "ruling class" you're referring to as being "into hallucinogens." If you mean the Incas, sure, though that would have been the coca leaf, which I don't believe is properly hallucinogenic (again, not my area of expertise). One wonders about ancient Indian brahmins and Soma but unfortunately no one actually knows what soma was. The medieval aristocracy drank, to be sure, as did the Romans, but we often forget that they watered their wine and were not taking in any more actual alcohol on a daily basis than anyone does today. If the use of narcotic or hallucinogenic substances was accepted, you'd expect them to have written about it more, and if it wasn't, you'd expect more moralists (every civilization had them) to have written condemning their consumption. I CAN say within my expertise as an historian that these substances are not very evident in the sources, so there's no evidence for deliberate widespread consumption until the modern era.

So I've done a little internet checking on ergot, nothing I'd call real research, and here's what I've found. Ergot grows on rye (only), and is fairly common but doesn't seem to have been utterly pervasive. Rye was widely cultivated in the Middle Ages but not the exclusive food supply, it stood alongside of wheat, oats and barley for making bread or porridge. There were periodic regional outbreaks of ergotism in the Middle Ages. Its main effect is not hallucinations, as it turns out (though hallucinogenic drugs can be made from ergot), but either convulsions or gangrene, depending on the variety of ergot. Convulsive ergotism is sometimes accompanied by hallucination. Ergot poisoning was recognized as a disease by medieval people, they called it "Holy Fire" or "St. Anthony's Fire" (though they didn't know the cause).

It is plausible that cases of ergotism could have been interpreted as a sign of witchcraft or demon possession, if they weren't recognized as St. Anthony's Fire, but you can't make the reverse conclusion - that all accusations of witchcraft, let alone the belief in witchcraft itself, were the result of ergotism.

The cause of St. Anthony's Fire wasn't discovered until 1670, so nobody was deliberately cultivating ergot to manufacture narcotics from it. Ergotism seems to occur in periodic acute outbreaks, not as an endemic "dream state." The problem with appealing to ergot as an explanatory device for historical events is precisely the evidence issue; a description of an individual's behavior (convulsions, etc.) may match symptoms of ergotism, but there are other things (e.g. epilepsy) that would have been described by pre-modern authors in similar terms; there is no way to verify that ergot was the cause, even if it's a plausible speculation. There is certainly no way to measure how widespread ergotism was other than recorded outbreaks of St. Anthony's Fire.

A lot of sloppy interpreting gets done by appealing to these kinds of speculations. The Salem Witch Trials would be a case in point. The girls who initiated the trials were behaving strangely, to their parents' eyes; but convulsions and hallucinations were not among the symptoms. They were doing things like Jumping into long religious discourses, running around the room flapping their arms, crawling around under the table. Most of it sounds like adolescent girls reacting against their highly regimented existence with outbursts of chaotic silliness. The wave of accusations the girls triggered was not the product of "hysteria" and certainly not hallucinations, but of paranoia rooted in deep-running social and economic conflicts in the town.
 
ancient-aliens-guy-im-not-saying-its-aliens-but-its-aliens.gif


My theory is Have already done this a few times but have blown ourselves up a few times causing us to go full circle.


Modern humans have been around for nearly 200,000 years, we've only been recording modern history for what 7000 years?which are more or less fragments up until 5000 years ago.
That's a pretty large gap in our development. Seeing as far as we're able to progress in a mere hundred years without alien intervention.

We don't give ourselves enough credit we are pretty clever animals.
 
hrodbert696 said:
If my expression of skepticism counts as "flaming," you've had a very sheltered life on the internet. Acknowledging that ergotism is not my field of expertise is a way of inviting those who can correct my gaps of knowledge to do so.

I'm not sure what culture's "ruling class" you're referring to as being "into hallucinogens." If you mean the Incas, sure, though that would have been the coca leaf, which I don't believe is properly hallucinogenic (again, not my area of expertise). One wonders about ancient Indian brahmins and Soma but unfortunately no one actually knows what soma was. The medieval aristocracy drank, to be sure, as did the Romans, but we often forget that they watered their wine and were not taking in any more actual alcohol on a daily basis than anyone does today. If the use of narcotic or hallucinogenic substances was accepted, you'd expect them to have written about it more, and if it wasn't, you'd expect more moralists (every civilization had them) to have written condemning their consumption. I CAN say within my expertise as an historian that these substances are not very evident in the sources, so there's no evidence for deliberate widespread consumption until the modern era.

So I've done a little internet checking on ergot, nothing I'd call real research, and here's what I've found. Ergot grows on rye (only), and is fairly common but doesn't seem to have been utterly pervasive. Rye was widely cultivated in the Middle Ages but not the exclusive food supply, it stood alongside of wheat, oats and barley for making bread or porridge. There were periodic regional outbreaks of ergotism in the Middle Ages. Its main effect is not hallucinations, as it turns out (though hallucinogenic drugs can be made from ergot), but either convulsions or gangrene, depending on the variety of ergot. Convulsive ergotism is sometimes accompanied by hallucination. Ergot poisoning was recognized as a disease by medieval people, they called it "Holy Fire" or "St. Anthony's Fire" (though they didn't know the cause).

It is plausible that cases of ergotism could have been interpreted as a sign of witchcraft or demon possession, if they weren't recognized as St. Anthony's Fire, but you can't make the reverse conclusion - that all accusations of witchcraft, let alone the belief in witchcraft itself, were the result of ergotism.

The cause of St. Anthony's Fire wasn't discovered until 1670, so nobody was deliberately cultivating ergot to manufacture narcotics from it. Ergotism seems to occur in periodic acute outbreaks, not as an endemic "dream state." The problem with appealing to ergot as an explanatory device for historical events is precisely the evidence issue; a description of an individual's behavior (convulsions, etc.) may match symptoms of ergotism, but there are other things (e.g. epilepsy) that would have been described by pre-modern authors in similar terms; there is no way to verify that ergot was the cause, even if it's a plausible speculation. There is certainly no way to measure how widespread ergotism was other than recorded outbreaks of St. Anthony's Fire.

A lot of sloppy interpreting gets done by appealing to these kinds of speculations. The Salem Witch Trials would be a case in point. The girls who initiated the trials were behaving strangely, to their parents' eyes; but convulsions and hallucinations were not among the symptoms. They were doing things like Jumping into long religious discourses, running around the room flapping their arms, crawling around under the table. Most of it sounds like adolescent girls reacting against their highly regimented existence with outbursts of chaotic silliness. The wave of accusations the girls triggered was not the product of "hysteria" and certainly not hallucinations, but of paranoia rooted in deep-running social and economic conflicts in the town.

No one ever stated they were taking it recreationally.

My great grandmother had tales of her hallucinating on it. I particularly remember one story where she had a conversation with a man while working in a field and the man disappeared.
 
It took me about three seconds to find that Ergot does not infect only Rye.

This site: The American Phytopathological Society; Invalid Link Removed

"Ergot and ergotism are most closely associated with rye (Matossian 1989), and although rye is attested early in the archaeological record in the ancient Near East and eastern Europe (Zohary and Hopf 2000), its cultivation was not widespread in antiquity, except perhaps in some northerly regions. However, weedy forms were prevalent and admixed with other cereal crops (Zohary and Hopf 2000). Zohary and Hopf also report convincing excavations of rye from Neolithic sites in Poland and Romania and from Bronze Age sites in the Czech Republic and Slovakia. Aaronson (1989) compiled records of Neolithic, Bronze Age, and Iron Age sites from which C. purpurea sclerotia were recovered in excavations in Poland, Scotland, Germany, Sweden, and Denmark. The fungus was found in association with rye, wheat, barley, and wild grasses. Dark and Gent (2001) cite further instances of ergot sclerotia recovered from ancient sites in the Netherlands and elsewhere and note that sclerotia were found in the stomach of one of the "bog bodies" from the Danish Iron Age (citing Helbaek 1958). The recording of ergot sclerotia in the digestive tracts of bog bodies has produced an apparent controversy over whether such persons were drugged before their demise (Fischer 1987).

Invalid Link Removed

Further, a Roman soldier's daily ration of wine was about a liter, which was suggested by their superiors that they water down. In times of occupation where they were merely policing, not on campaigns, I will suggest that they would use it to get drunk and they would, as the occupying forces, help themselves to the locals wine throughout a typical day. Nah, ancient people didn't like to get drunk. Wine was a staple. Being used as such negates it's effects as an intoxicant.:rolleyes: The wealthy ruling class is said, I have found in another three seconds, to have consumed about two liters a day (a modern bottle is 750 ml, so that's 2.5 bottles). Sober as judges. No more alcohol than we take in today, those of us that are piss tanks anyway. How much booze does it take to get a chronic alky drunk again? One drink. Maybe you don't know any alkies, I do and see it happen all the time.

Then you have the use of Ayahuasca in South America that appears to go back millenia. Daturas, a plant native to Columbia is still cultivated and used by shaman. Torna- loco, TOLOACHE, shanin.... the list goes on, were used by the Aztecs. In central America, shamans typically ate mushrooms containing psilocybin; magic mushrooms. Peyote. Erowid Online Books : "Golden Guide Hallucinogenic Plants" - pg 141-150

Nothing conclusive, just that these things were used regularly and contain hallucinogenic compounds. Widely. Regularly. By the religious ruling classes.
 

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