Where to notch mids?

[YourGuitarist]

A lot of the amplifiers that bass players use scoop mids - Fenders are a classic example. If you crank the mids (on 10), and set treble and bass to 5, you'd think you are boosting mids, but you're not - you're still scooping mids a fair amount. This behavior has, unfortunately led people to think that scooping mids at all is a bad thing. It isn't - bass is a rather mid heavy instrument, and scooping them some (but not a lot) is often a good thing. The eq in my rig is a Source Audio EQ2. Unilke a Fender tone stack, flat is actually flat. On some of my basses , I do scoop mids a bit, centered at around 300 Hz - 3 to 5 dB - a shallow, wide scoop. On a J, I don't - A J has mid scoop from the pickup positions, it doesn't really need any more.

This was my original intent of discussion here. It seems I didn't articulate it well. I agree many tonestacks naturally notch mids and are flat AT BEST though bass amps are generally better than guitar amps because people accept James and Baxandall EQs such as Ampeg.

My intent was to ask in concerns to the type of tone shaping done in a preamp. Not so much the cuts made when mixing.

I agree that when mixing it is a contextual affair. In mixing I find that mid cuts typically reduce to either being around 800-1k for creating space for vox and guitar or being around 300 to give space for body in guitars and snares.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

I've noticed in isolation that many bass tones benefit from some sort of smiley face curve. However, the location of de-emphasized frequencies is quite different across gear and mixes.

My question is when you want to notch mids, where is your preference, and how deep?

Do you boost elsewhere to make up for it?

You didn't have "carrots" as an option so I chose 900Hz. Dude the last thing you want to do playing bass in a group is run a smiley-face EQ. The Bass OWNS the low mids. Kick drum gets the lowest of the lows, guitar and keys eat up all of the high-mids and highs. Those low-mids between 250Hz and 550Hz is where the bass lives. If you cut those frequencies, you've just cut yourself out of the mix. People will see you playing and they can tell whether or not your playing, but there will be no definition to your playing - they can't hear the notes.

If you want your bass to be heard in the mix with a group, you need to boost the low mids SLIGHTLY. If you boost them too much it will make your sound honk at you. If that happens just slowly drop the boost until it goes away. I use a passive Jazz Bass and I run the controls on the bass dimed (volume, volume, and tone). I run either an Eden amp or a DNA amp, depending upon where I'm playing. With the Eden amps I run everything flat except for a small boost the low mids at 250Hz up to 1:30 on the dial. It's not a lot of boost but it is enough to give my bass presence and definition in the mix. With my DNA amp the Low-Mids control is centered at 500Hz and I boost that also to 1:30.

Be aware that the human ear loses the bass and treble but hears the mids just fine when you are listening to music at low level...like at bedroom practice levels. That's where a smiley face EQ makes some sense and why the "loudness" button was put on so many high-fidelity receivers. At gig levels your ears have no trouble hearing the bass and treble at all and scooping the mids scoops you right out of the mix.

Below is a video from a gig in 2018 where I am using an Eden WT500/800 delivering up to 400-watts per channel or 800-watts bridged. Since my Eden EX112 cabs (handle 300-watts rms) are both 4Ω cabs, I plug one into each side (power channel) of that amp. Everything is set flat on the amp except for the boost to 1:30 at 250Hz for the low-mids. The recording was done by on an iPhone from my side of the stage. Between myself and my lead guitar, Jim Badders, we obscure poor Joan on keys who is singing this Jefferson Airplane song. You may catch a glimpse of her. But just listen to this song. My bass has presence and definition and you can hear every single note that I play on this song without me having to drown everyone else out. The only EQ change I made from flat was that small boost at 250Hz in low-mids.

 

[Zooberwerx]

I voted 500-600 but that's my gear and along the lines of mild attenuation. I always considered a notch to be fairly severe with a markedly narrow bandwidth and rarely require that level of correction.

Riis

 

[Tim Skaggs]

I always cut somewhere around 250Hz in almost every room or outdoors. There are the rare echo-y rooms where I leave it flat and cut some low end.

 

[Drop1]

I posted last night that I rarely cut mids, and that's true, but that's specific to this bass with this amp.

The instrument, amp, strings cab and room will ALL have an effect on what you need to do to get the sound you want.

You may have to cut mids on one bass and not on another . Where you need to cut can vary so much bass to bass, room, strings to strings cab to cab etc.

I'll give you a good example.

Elixir coated strings are almost all the frequencies even ALL the time. Dr Hi beams have a natural mid range cut and a peak up near 1500hz. I know this from looking at the waves through an analyzer.

That's just one example. There are piles of different strings and basses out there and people like lots of different tones and those tones need different things from room to room to achieve. So while I dont usually cut mids on this bass, I do want a good eq with at minimum sweepable mids at all times. Never know when you will need it.
I like having sweepable mids on the bass pre. This way I have access, no matter what I'm playing on, without a need for pedals.

 

[JazznFunk]

There is no 'standard' - you tune the amp to the room. That said - especially with my double bass and its pickup/tone considerations - I'm scooping in the 200 Hz range as a general rule on its preamp (Radial ToneBone PZ Deluxe) to take out some of the boxiness/quack and mud that is built in with most piezo pickups. Then, I tweak the amp EQ itself to whatever the room demands. On electric, I start with everything 'flat' and make small cuts in the high/low mid areas to see what effect each has, and then add back in where necessary. Cut first, boost last. Having sweepable mids, or at least semi-parametric, is key.

 

[JazznFunk]

there is no right answer devoid of source material. always use your ears to make the move that the track needs based on what has been recorded. I notch the frequencies that sound the worst -- if the mix calls for it at all.

a trick I use is to solo the track i'm looking to improve, take an EQ with a very narrow Q, boost it as far as it will go, and sweep the frequency around until i found what sounds the very worst. then i'll pull this narrow-band EQ down so it's cutting a few dB. usually it sounds better after that.

This right here. Sweep/excite the spectrum and figure out what the hot spots are, then cut in those areas a little to see what is best. Don't boost unless you've tried cutting first. Saves headroom and needless headaches and tweaking.

 

[jw23mind]

how would you distinguish setting mids in a live room versus a bedroom? Trying to figure what pitfalls to avoid.

Since exaggerated highs and lows can sound good at bedroom volumes (loudness curves), corresponding mid scoop works in a way that it doesn’t at high volumes, because there the excess highs and lows become overbearing.

 

[burgerdj]

how would you distinguish setting mids in a live room versus a bedroom? Trying to figure what pitfalls to avoid.

When you add instruments and increase the volume all kinds of frequency interactions will occur. The room you are playing in also plays a critical role in how frequencies interact and in some cases cancel out. Cutting mids and boosting bass and trouble frequencies might sound clean and pleasing when you’re just practicing at home, but the note definition of your playing in a live/loud situation will depend on the mids. Again, start flat and avoid dumping wide mid frequency ranges. If your amp has a parametric eq, that can be helpful to zero in on problematic frequencies that resonate too strongly in a particular room.

 

[jeffb28451]

I was surprised yesterday in a session where we cut a quite narrow, but 20 db at 125 Hz. Would never thought to go that low, but it worked. So...horses for courses, I guess.

 

[Geogio]

I'm a plug and play guy.. when I use an equalizer I adjust the sliders to a "smiley face" but I really have no idea why... other than scooping mids is supposed to be a thing. Okay... on most amps I use I take a lot of the bass out 12:00 the mids and put the high mids and the trebs up at 2 and 3 o'clock. I also use medium to heavy flats which keeps the LF's happening, allowing the presence to remain intact. At least... that's what MY ears are telling me.

An old guitar compadre Crazy Dave called it "The butter in the bottom of the pan."

 

[FullumMusic]

You can't pick a frequency to alter without hearing the natural frequency curve of each individual bass through each amp or PA it's being played through.

If you say "always cut 500Hz-600Hz" but the bass has already has a natural cut in that range, it'll be too much. And if it a certain amp or room has a resonance or a boost around 350Hz, cutting at 500Hz-600Hz won't help.

You just gotta play with everything flat (neutral) and listen, and hear what frequencies you have too much of and too little of for the bass & amp & room & your preference, and adjust accordingly. It'll always be different for every bass and amp and PA and room and player and strings.

I also might get a bit pedantic disagreeing with

in isolation that many bass tones benefit from some sort of smiley face curve

1- Even in isolation i'm not a huge fan of that tone. So, it's more a personal preference for your tastes than a rule of thumb. Some people like scooped mids. Some don't. That's why music is wonderful.
2- In isolation is one thing, and it's fine if you enjoy that tone. But in general, we don't play in isolation unless we're making Social Media Solo Bass Videos. In general, we're playing with other instruments. So to go in assuming you're gonna have to scoop the mids could lead to difficulty on the back end of things, fitting into the mix and being heard clearly. I'm a big fan of listening first, EQing second for each situation.
$0.02

 

[logdrum]

Notch is narrow in my application and that is for double bass. My AI amps (2/3) have a notch filter and it is a deep cut >-18 dB sweepable from 30 to 800 Hz. It is a pretty narrow band. My HB2 preamp also have a notch control. I think you meant to say dip/scoop not notch. I may also notch an electric if there is a resonant frequency in conjunction with the cabinet and room

 

[Joebone]

Not a fan of mid-scoop - 99% finger player, and overall tonal goal is strong, defined attack and fat warm timbre. General trend, when equipment permits, is a bit of a boost in the 250-350 range, and a fair amount of scoop around 1.8kHz, to eliminate clank and get a bit out of the guitar space. If playing with 3-band eq on the bass, will deeply scoop mids for certain synthy sounds (think "Time After Time"), and boost them when copping a MusicMan vibe (on two-band, boosting treble and bass and backing off volume for that synthy thing).

 

[Stylee Mousse]

I don’t usually cut mids. In fact the midrange control inductor broke off on my SVT-CL at some point and I left it for a few years that way.

for recording all bets are off. I know this sounds funny but I usually don’t do mid cuts there either. It’s all about the song and arrangement, I typically record what I want it to sound like going in

 

[jellymax]

scooping mids for bass, aka smiley face eq was more necessary in the old days when bass cabinets
didn't reproduce low end like modern cabs. back then if you wanted to feel some low end it was necessary to
turn up loud and tame the low mids.
modern cabs sound great with the eq flat , offering punch and low end at the same time. a scooped sound
is still heard in certain styes of music where the bass is prominent in the mix mostly.

 

[Brian Bromberg]

Hey there Dbassmon, just an FYI and not that it matters at all, but when I record and play live 90% of the time I use no EQ at all, just flat using both pickups straight up. Depending on the room, the stage, the music etc. I will adjust accordingly either with a little bottom bump or mid bump if I want more finger. My basses have a three band EQ. Lows, highs, and mids with a frequency sweep, but truly most of the time I just go flat, straight in and flat on the amp as well. If my sound doesn't sound good coming from my hands and my bass then all the amp is going to do is make my not so good sound louder.......

 

[jw23mind]

I have found a gentle adjustment of a few dB centered around 450-650 can be useful, entirely dependent on the starting point and volume level of course. High enough to not mess with the fundamental frequencies, low enough to not mess with articulation frequencies (Fletcher-Munson curves).

 

[Lonnybass]

My advice, buy a parametric EQ pedal (the Empress ParaEQ and WMD Utility are two great options) and experiment with different frequency settings. Boost with a very narrow Q and then adjust the frequency selector knob - you'll be able to find areas of the spectrum where your bass is accumulating tons of energy and nasty, boxy tonal qualities.

In the time I've had mine, I've found that much of the "muscle" us bass players want to fill out the bottom of a rock or R&B mix is typically in the "upper bass/lower mids" area (90hz - 250hz). This is usually higher than where the bass knob on an amp is typically centered.

The issue is that there is a LOT of other stuff competing for space in the lower mids, and it's easy to overdo it. Parametrics allow for pinpoint accurate slotting and notching, and preventing the Mud Factor.

In terms of mids in higher frequencies, boost 800 Hz if you want to sound like Jaco. Cut 2200 if you want a clean punchy Nathan East-style slap.

 

[JRA]

a smiley face is fine to start, but if your best EQ at a particular playdown ends up being a frown, or a grimace, or whatever: no biggie! i'm with those who'd consider the issue to be 'context dependent'.

i didn't vote, but if i did = i would've picked all four choices to cover "200-600." somewhere in there is a majority of the time, but there are always exceptions and other notched (up or down) configurations rule the moment.

in the bedroom: ~250.