Which amp for $1000?

[James Copple]

Guys and gals,

I have just auditioned for a local band and been accepted! I am so very excited. I require a much more powerful amp now and I have been saving my pocket money. Please, please could you spare a moment and tell me what you would buy? A make and model, with or without an explanation (but an explanation would certainly be appreciated).

The band play mainly heavy metal and rock 'n roll. The two electric guitarists each have Marshal stacks pumping out about 350-550W I think. The Drummer plays acoustic drums. They band has a very powerful PA system they use at medium-sized gigs. The drums are mic's to the PA at gigs.

At the rehearsal I was using a linked pair of Roland KC-350 keyboard amps. The sound is great but they lack the necessary power for anything but rehearsal, and I'm concerned about over-stressing them and ruining them for keyboard amplification.

I think I need something like a 4x10 cab with at least 800w capacity and a suitable head. That should do it for all but the biggest gigs or outdoor performances, when I can DI or mic to the PA. Size and weight is an issue, and smaller, lighter kit would be more attractive. I understand the impedance issue and I think I will buy a single 8-ohm cab to go with an 8-ohm head, or a 4-ohm cab and 4-ohm head, and not think about later upgrading to 2 cabs, unless someone can persuade me otherwise. The guitar is a Yamaha TRBX174, budget but nevertheless a fantastic instrument in my mind, with no active electronics. My budget is around $1000 but I could stretch a little.

So my question is, if you were me, what amp would you buy? Many thanks in advance for your thoughts...

 

[orangejulius3]

I think I need something like a 4x10 cab with at least 800w capacity and a suitable head. That should do it for all but the biggest gigs or outdoor performances, when I can DI or mic to the PA. My budget is around $1000 but I could stretch a little.

So my question is, if you were me, what amp would you buy? Many thanks in advance for your thoughts...

You are on the right track!
A 4x10 cab will be a really good option.

Cab:
If I was in your shoes, I probably get the GK NEO 4x10 cab either new or from the classifieds.

Amp:
I probably would also look on the TB classifieds and see if I can get a GK 800RB or a GK Fusion 550.

 

[CL400Peavey]

Get over your weight restrictions. You are going g to need a lot of cab to hang with that, and they won't be light AND cheap.

 

[Bass_Pounder]

I understand the impedance issue and I think I will buy a single 8-ohm cab to go with an 8-ohm head, or a 4-ohm cab and 4-ohm head, and not think about later upgrading to 2 cabs, unless someone can persuade me otherwise.

Based upon this, I don't think you really do understand the "impedance issue".

 

[Kmonk]

There is no need for your guitarists to be using that much power but if I were you, I would look for a used Ampeg head and cab. Maybe an SVT 6 PRO and a 410HE or 410HLF.

 

[James Copple]

Based upon this, I don't think you really do understand the "impedance issue".

Thanks for the constructive remark.

It's been 20 years since the faculty of mechanical engineering at Leeds uni gave me their basic grounding in electric string and wiggly amps, so the memories are rather dim, but as I understand it, you can pair a 4-ohm head with an 8-ohm cab but you won't be able to use all the power of the head; you can pair a 4-ohm head with two 8-ohm cabs in parallel and use all the power of the head; you can pair a 4-ohm head and cab or an 8-ohm head and cab and use all the power of the head; but you can't pair an 8-ohm head with a 4-ohm cab or you'll melt your head. Am I missing anything?

 

[DannyBob]

Is 2 cheap but powerful combos and an AB box suitable?

 

[The Regulator]

An Ampeg PF800 head. A used Ampeg or SWR cab : either 610 or 810.

 

[bebass]

Get over your weight restrictions. You are going g to need a lot of cab to hang with that, and they won't be light AND cheap.

Yep! Metal? Marshalls? Been there. 900 watt power amp needed plus a foot in the guitar players rear every time he gets too loud.

OP: For your budget I would...increase the budget. But if you can't do that I would get a Hartke LM1000 and pair it with a 4 ohm Traynor TC410, IF you want the ability to add a second 410, which you may want to do - never say never. For lightweight amp the Traynor SB500H or Kustom KXB500 paired with the 8 ohm TC410neo would also give the ability to add a second cab.

If none of that is possible, another suggestion is to get one of those 500 watt 15" GB combos that are Blowout discontinued priced and shop around for a compatible 15 for it. It would take both 15's to do what you want to do.

ON 3rd thought, for that type of music another option would be to get a Peavey IPR power amp with pre of your choice. I think you could come in close to your budget with the power amp, an inexpensive (for right now) pre and the above mentioned 410. And add another 410 later.
I used a 15 with a 12 and did fine with metal band with double Marshalls. But my speakers are designed to handle a lot of power (3015lf and 3012).

 

[James Copple]

You are on the right track!
A 4x10 cab will be a really good option.

Cab:
If I was in your shoes, I probably get the GK NEO 4x10 cab either new or from the classifieds.

Amp:
I probably would also look on the TB classifieds and see if I can get a GK 800RB or a GK Fusion 550.

I have been leaning towards this exact set-up. However, some threads I have read claim that this GK rig is missing mid-range, though has plenty of top and bottom. Is there any truth in that do you think?

 

[James Copple]

Yep! Metal? Marshalls? Been there. 900 watt power amp needed plus a foot in the guitar players rear every time he gets too loud.

OP: For your budget I would...increase the budget.

Yes.... perhaps I will. I think I'll also need to invest in some ear plugs! Those guitarists like to play LOUD. They do play well though...

 

[Zooberwerx]

James,

Congrats on the new band project. However, you made the near-fatal mistake of asking "which amp". Be prepared to be bombarded by posts suggesting every single manufacturer, model, etc. known to man. Your projected needs are realistic and adequate for backline support...DI to the board if the FOH will accommodate. Do buy used...TB and CraigsList are great starting points. I use a preamp / power amp / (2) 2 X 10 rig but that's just me. $1000 will buy a lot of amp if you're patient and use your best judgement. See something interesting locally but not too sure? No problem...let us know what you've found and we'll dissect / over-analyze your choice.

We're here to help...you do believe that, don't you Danny?

Riis

 

[PortlandBass77]

I would check CL, there are usually good deals on full GK rigs.

 

[CL400Peavey]

Is 2 cheap but powerful combos and an AB box suitable?

Does not exist.

 

[AciDBatH666]

For some reason I doubt these guitarists are pushing 350-550. I'd guess it's more like 100-150.
Are they playing with half stacks or full stacks? Full stacks for guitars are a big overkill for practice. So I'm going to assume half stacks.
In that case, you'll need about 3X the wattage to compete with them. If they're both playing 100 watt heads, you're going to need 500+ to be heard, but you'll also need more speakers to compensate. This is where Bass_pounder's comment about you not understanding impedance comes into play.
A 500 watt head at 4 ohms pushes 500 watts. But if you're plugged into an 8 ohm cab, it's only pushing maybe 300.

I'd start with 500+ watts and aim for as high as you can get. Start with an 8 ohm 4X10, and expect to have to dish out for another 4X10. Used 4X10s are pretty plentiful in most areas, so go used and beat em the hell up.

My rig, just to give you some insight (metal/thrash/prog) is a GK MB800 Fusion head (800 watts @ 4 ohms) into an Ampeg 8X10. My guitarists are playing half stack Randall (110 watts) and an ENGL (60 watt). I can overpower them EASILY, and I built my rig for that purpose. I went as high as I could get/afford with the wattage of the amp. My last amp was a GK 1001RBii. I'd look for one of these used. It's kind of the standard for a lot of metal guys. Great GK growl and 700 watts of power. I wouldn't say GK misses in the mid range, as long as it's got a 4 band eq that's got Low-Mid, and High-mid controls, you can boost em and really cut through the mix.

Cliff notes, I think if they're playing half stacks, a 4X10 is going to let you be heard, but you'll need more speakers to be heard clearer. That changes with a PA though.
Also, for the Ohm impedance thing, you can plug two 8 ohm cabs into a head and it'll push 4ohms total load out. If you buy a 4 Ohm cab, you're stuck with that one cab. So buy a head that's good for 4/8 ohms (the majority of them are, and some go down to 2), and buy cabs that are 8 so that you can always pair them up later on. You never know when you're going to want to double up. Go look it up in the stickies in the amp section.

 

[orangejulius3]

I have been leaning towards this exact set-up. However, some threads I have read claim that this GK rig is missing mid-range, though has plenty of top and bottom. Is there any truth in that do you think?

As far as the amps go, No.

The tuning of the 4x10 cab, Yes. The cab is mid scooped.

If your worried about mids, you can go with the GK neo 2x12. This cab is close to an even response. You lose some of the deep bass response and some volume if anything. You might need 2 of these to compete or a single 4x12.

 

[Sid Fang]

I have just auditioned for a local band and been accepted!

Congrats! Rock out!

Please, please could you spare a moment and tell me what you would buy?

You've come to a dangerous place to ask such a question. Be prepared to have 100 guys (and maybe a couple gals) tell you to buy what they've got, 'cos it's great. I'm not gonna do that, but...

The band play mainly heavy metal and rock 'n roll. The two electric guitarists each have Marshal stacks pumping out about 350-550W I think.

It may sound like 350-550W to you, but actually Marshalls don't go that high! I don't know of any that are more than 100W, but they're tube amps, so they sound louder (search for "tube watts" some time if you want some confusion).

The Drummer plays acoustic drums. They band has a very powerful PA system they use at medium-sized gigs. The drums are mic's to the PA at gigs.

This is an important factor and a very Good Thing. It means that your bass can be run into the PA as well, and that you don't actually need to overpower both guitarists with your stage amp volume.

I think I need something like a 4x10 cab with at least 800w capacity and a suitable head.

If there's one thing I'd want to convey, it's that more speaker area is better than more amp watts. Speaker power handling capacity ratings are generally deceptively optimistic - better not to run much more than half of the "rated" power if you can avoid it - and if you were really going to need 800W through a 410 to get to the band's stage sound level, I'd urge you to instead do it with half the power going to twice the speakers - a pair of 410s or a pair of 212s - it would be louder and sound better.

But given that you've got the option to DI into the PA for reinforcement, yeah, you could start with a 410 or a 212. 212s have slightly less speaker area, but they "beam" less directionally, and can be significantly lighter weight for the sound they produce. A 450W or better head should be sufficient, particularly if it can handle 2-ohm loads (so you can run a pair of 4-ohm cabs). You of course want one with a DI direct-out for the PA.

I understand the impedance issue and I think I will buy a single 8-ohm cab to go with an 8-ohm head, or a 4-ohm cab and 4-ohm head, and not think about later upgrading to 2 cabs, unless someone can persuade me otherwise.

Actually, I don't think you do understand the impedance issue, but there's lots of info search will turn up for you and I'm not going to go into it here. But I will underscore that setting yourself up so that you can add another cabinet at some point is a really good idea, because of that more-speakers-beats-more-watts thing.

My budget is around $1000 but I could stretch a little.

Buy used, young man. Browse around the TalkBass classifieds - it's mostly good people with good gear. You should be able to get a good 410, 212, or maybe 610 (heavy, but loud!) cabinet and a 500W-ish head from a reputable builder for that amount.

 

[Bass_Pounder]

. This is where Bass_pounder's comment about you not understanding impedance comes into play.
A 500 watt head at 4 ohms pushes 500 watts. But if you're plugged into an 8 ohm cab, it's only pushing maybe 300.

Exactly...

Getting a 4 ohm cab to "get all the watts" is a fools errand. The same cab at 4 ohms vs 8 ohms will not really be any louder.

 

[James Copple]

Congrats! Rock out!

You've come to a dangerous place to ask such a question. Be prepared to have 100 guys (and maybe a couple gals) tell you to buy what they've got, 'cos it's great. I'm not gonna do that, but...

It may sound like 350-550W to you, but actually Marshall's don't go that high! I don't know of any that are more than 100W, but they're tube amps, so they sound louder (search for "tube watts" some time if you want some confusion).

This is an important factor and a very Good Thing. It means that your bass can be run into the PA as well, and that you don't actually need to overpower both guitarists with your stage amp volume.

If there's one thing I'd want to convey, it's that more speaker area is better than more amp watts. Speaker power handling capacity ratings are generally deceptively optimistic - better not to run much more than half of the "rated" power if you can avoid it - and if you were really going to need 800W through a 410 to get to the band's stage sound level, I'd urge you to instead do it with half the power going to twice the speakers - a pair of 410s or a pair of 212s - it would be louder and sound better.

But given that you've got the option to DI into the PA for reinforcement, yeah, you could start with a 410 or a 212. 212s have slightly less speaker area, but they "beam" less directionally, and can be significantly lighter weight for the sound they produce. A 450W or better head should be sufficient, particularly if it can handle 2-ohm loads (so you can run a pair of 4-ohm cabs). You of course want one with a DI direct-out for the PA.

Actually, I don't think you do understand the impedance issue, but there's lots of info search will turn up for you and I'm not going to go into it here. But I will underscore that setting yourself up so that you can add another cabinet at some point is a really good idea, because of that more-speakers-beats-more-watts thing.

Buy used, young man. Browse around the TalkBass classifieds - it's mostly good people with good gear. You should be able to get a good 410, 212, or maybe 610 (heavy, but loud!) cabinet and a 500W-ish head from a reputable builder for that amount.

Thank you, some excellent advice. I'm sure you're right about the guitarists' amps. They both had Marshal systems. I've texted the lead guitarist to find out exactly what they have, I think it will be an important factor in my decision making process.

This is one of those circumstances where it's easy to go with the heart rather than the head (no pun intended). I probably feel like I need something I don't need, and need something I don't really want. The trick will be working out what I really need then persuading myself I want it, and your advice is going to help me do that. Thanks

 

[James Copple]

As far as the amps go, No.

The tuning of the 4x10 cab, Yes. The cab is mid scooped.

If your worried about mids, you can go with the GK neo 2x12. This cab is close to an even response. You lose some of the deep bass response and some volume if anything. You might need 2 of these to compete or a single 4x12.

Aha, a new term to add to my vocab - "mid-scooped". I learn! Thanks. I am reading up on that now. Maybe it would be a good thing to have a mid-scooped cab, so the bass comes loud and clear without the mids stepping into the guitar territory and encouraging those pesky guitarists to turn up their volume? Or am I way off the point here?