Which amp for $1000?

[Bass_Pounder]

Aha, a new term to add to my vocab - "mid-scooped". I learn! Thanks. I am reading up on that now. Maybe it would be a good thing to have a mid-scooped cab, so the bass comes loud and clear without the mids stepping into the guitar territory and encouraging those pesky guitarists to turn up their volume? Or am I way off the point here?

Off point........

Mid scooped sounds great in solo/bedroom practice, but easily gets lost in the mix when playing with others.

 

[James Copple]

An Ampeg PF800 head. A used Ampeg or SWR cab : either 610 or 810.

Looking through some reviews of the Portaflex, I found this:

"Comments about Ampeg Portaflex PF800 800W Class D Bass Amp Head:

The "Ampeg sound" is popular with many bass players, so I thought I'd give this amp a try since it also promised high power for relatively low money in a lightweight amp. I also liked that it had a headphone jack and controls for mixing.

I set all the tone controls to noon, compression off, and played it through my 410 cabinet. Just as I was thinking it sounded dark, my wife walked in and said "you turned the bass up too high." Definitely not much of a mid presence.

I had to use "Ultra hi" switch and jack up the midrange tone control just to get out of the scooped sound. But with that much mid boost, it hisses like a leaking tire. That hiss was also evident in my headphones (which also sounded dark with tone controls at neutral).

If you like the "warm," vintage sound, it might work well for you. But I like a more transparent, modern forward sound and this amp definitely didn't work for me.

BOTTOM LINE No, I would not recommend this to a friend"

Is he wrong?

 

[James Copple]

Off point........

Mid scooped sounds great in solo/bedroom practice, but easily gets lost in the mix when playing with others.

Ah, so I have it the wrong way round. I need the mid range to accompany the band or I'll not be heard. This is great info. So I want a non-scooped cab.

 

[James Copple]

James,

Congrats on the new band project. However, you made the near-fatal mistake of asking "which amp". Be prepared to be bombarded by posts suggesting every single manufacturer, model, etc. known to man. Your projected needs are realistic and adequate for backline support...DI to the board if the FOH will accommodate. Do buy used...TB and CraigsList are great starting points. I use a preamp / power amp / (2) 2 X 10 rig but that's just me. $1000 will buy a lot of amp if you're patient and use your best judgement. See something interesting locally but not too sure? No problem...let us know what you've found and we'll dissect / over-analyze your choice.

We're here to help...you do believe that, don't you Danny?

Riis

Thanks. Lots of advice saying "buy used". I accept that I could get a bargain, but I'm having cognitive dissonance trying to feel that buying used is a good idea. I've been promising myself shiny new toys if I got in the band; It's easy to order, I live in the middle of nowhere and I'll get free delivery in a few days if I buy new stuff; I get a warranty on new stuff.

Having said all that, my Roland amps were both bought second-hand at less than half the new price, and I love them. One did have a blown tweeter that I had to replace, but they are fine apart from that. But I bought them when I lived in Las Vegas NV and craigslist was humming with gear. Here in the Lincoln national forest all you can get on craigslist is used gun racks and ATVs.

 

[ArtechnikA]

As long as we're tossing out suggestions...
Hartke LH1000 bridged into a GK 412 Neo.
Kilowatt head into a kilowatt-rated cab still sounds good turned down low for practice. Useful DI on the head for your PA-supported live shows. Solid stuff. Seriously loud. Front that with a B7K if you need a 'more metal' overdrive sound...

 

[James Copple]

Is 2 cheap but powerful combos and an AB box suitable?

Possibly. My Rolands are combos, but they're not powerful enough and they're chuffing heavy as it is. They don't need an AB box because they're designed to be used as a pair, and each has a stereo in/out socket (built-in AB box I guess).

 

[Bass_Pounder]

Ah, so I have it the wrong way round. I need the mid range to accompany the band or I'll not be heard. This is great info. So I want a non-scooped cab.

It may help if you can tell us some players or songs that have the tone your looking for.

 

[James Copple]

It may sound like 350-550W to you, but actually Marshall's don't go that high! I don't know of any that are more than 100W, but they're tube amps, so they sound louder (search for "tube watts" some time if you want some confusion).

You're spot-on. The lead guitar amp is a Marshall JCM 900 Mk III High Gain Master Volume Head running 100W through a Marshall 1960A 300W cab. The other guitar player has 3 amp/cab combos but yesterday he was running a Marshall JVM 410 HJS 100W head through a 1960AV 280W cab. Maybe I don't need as much power as I thought. Great progress!

 

[JimmyM]

Looking through some reviews of the Portaflex, I found this:

"Comments about Ampeg Portaflex PF800 800W Class D Bass Amp Head:

The "Ampeg sound" is popular with many bass players, so I thought I'd give this amp a try since it also promised high power for relatively low money in a lightweight amp. I also liked that it had a headphone jack and controls for mixing.

I set all the tone controls to noon, compression off, and played it through my 410 cabinet. Just as I was thinking it sounded dark, my wife walked in and said "you turned the bass up too high." Definitely not much of a mid presence.

I had to use "Ultra hi" switch and jack up the midrange tone control just to get out of the scooped sound. But with that much mid boost, it hisses like a leaking tire. That hiss was also evident in my headphones (which also sounded dark with tone controls at neutral).

If you like the "warm," vintage sound, it might work well for you. But I like a more transparent, modern forward sound and this amp definitely didn't work for me.

BOTTOM LINE No, I would not recommend this to a friend"

Is he wrong?

Yes. I don't know what he's talking about with this scooped and not enough mids and treble with knobs at noon business. He never did mention what cab he uses, either. I have to turn down the highs a bit myself and I don't lack for mids with knobs at noon.

 

[James Copple]

It may help if you can tell us some players or songs that have the tone your looking for.

The set list:

Sober-Tool
Bodies-Drowning Pool
Mother-Danzig
Your Betrayal-Bullet For My Valentine
Animal-Three Days Grace
Stinkfist-Tool
Killing In The Name Of-Rage Against The Machine
Seek & Destroy-Metallica
Would?-Alice In Chains
Fever-Bullet For My Valentine
Lightning Crashes-Live
Cumbersome-Seven Mary Three
Jeremy-Pearl Jam
Even Flow-Pearl Jam
Riot-Three Days Grace
Blitzkrieg-Metallica
Whiskey In The Jar- Metallica
Longview-Green Day
Gel-Collective Soul
Simple Man-Lynard Skynard
I Am Murloc-Level 70 Elite Tauren Chieftain
Paranoid-Black Sabbath
Cat Scratch Fever-Ted Nugent
Tush-ZZ Top
Sharp Dressed Man-ZZ Top
Feel Like Makin love-Bad Company
Plowed-Sponge
Sweet Home Alabama-Lynard Skynard
The Trooper-Iron Maiden
Green Manalishi-Judas Priest
Born To Be Wild-Steppenwolf
Dirty White Boy-Foreigner
Low Rider- Exodus
Back In The USSR-The Beatles
You Got Another Thing Comin-Judas Priest
Psycho-Puddle Of Mudd
Turn The Page-Metallica
We're An American Band-Grand Funk Railroad
OK-Farin Urlaub

 

[ArtechnikA]

...Maybe I don't need as much power as I thought. Great progress!

One rule of thumb is you'll need 10x the watts the guitars do - and you're up against two... You need to move a lot more air than they do, and that takes power. Certainly there are guys that do it with less, and if you'll have PA support you may be able to get by with less. However - there is no such thing as too much as long as you have a volume knob and know how to use it. Just more power costs and weighs more. I'd still go with the LH1000 just based on value, but it is not light... The LH500 is (a bit) lighter and cheaper but there's that "for only a little more" factor... If you really need small and light the GK 800 Fusion gets a lot of love and could drive a 410 or 412 quite nicely. You'll pay for the Neo's lightness but most (including me) think it's worth it. I can handle a Neo 412 singlehanded and I doubt I could do the same with other technology...

 

[James Copple]

As long as we're tossing out suggestions...
Hartke LH1000 bridged into a GK 412 Neo.
Kilowatt head into a kilowatt-rated cab still sounds good turned down low for practice. Useful DI on the head for your PA-supported live shows. Solid stuff. Seriously loud. Front that with a B7K if you need a 'more metal' overdrive sound...

Hmmmmm... I can't find a bad review on the GK 412 Neo, and it's supposed to be reasonably light for it's power, just could do with some side handles. Perhaps I could find a way.

 

[Ben Noblit]

That setlist sounds like the standard "angry SVT" tone to me. If you're going light, I'd look at a PF800, Orange Terror bass, or something like that for a head. Get as much cab as you can, with two Marshall half stacks I'd be a lot more comfortable with a pair of cabinets than just one.

 

[Ben Noblit]

a 412 or 610/810 would probably be fine as a single cabinet.

 

[Ewo]

Yes.... perhaps I will. I think I'll also need to invest in some ear plugs! Those guitarists like to play LOUD. They do play well though...

Yeah, with the gear you've described I'd expect it to be l-o-u-d. There's a sticky on ear plugs. Check that out, for sure.

I'd recommend custom molded plugs over the off-the-shelf, as they'll likely seal better. (Been very pleased with the ACS Pro17 plugs.) ACS in NYC or London (and I think they just opened a branch in LA) will make custom plugs with either their own Pro attenuator buttons or with Ety's, from molds your local audiologist casts or your ear canal.

Lookee here: http://www.acscustom.com/us/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=102&Itemid=44

But in the meantime the Etymotic ER-20s or ACS Pacatos are better than nothing. (Note: the pic on that page of ER-20 off-the-shelf plugs is incorrect, AFAIK. The ER-20s look like the Pacatos, conical with flanges.)

 

[James Copple]

One rule of thumb is you'll need 10x the watts the guitars do - and you're up against two... You need to move a lot more air than they do, and that takes power. Certainly there are guys that do it with less, and if you'll have PA support you may be able to get by with less. However - there is no such thing as too much as long as you have a volume knob and know how to use it. Just more power costs and weighs more. I'd still go with the LH1000 just based on value, but it is not light... The LH500 is (a bit) lighter and cheaper but there's that "for only a little more" factor... If you really need small and light the GK 800 Fusion gets a lot of love and could drive a 410 or 412 quite nicely. You'll pay for the Neo's lightness but most (including me) think it's worth it. I can handle a Neo 412 singlehanded and I doubt I could do the same with other technology...

Alright! that rule-of-thumb is fantastic info.

Yeah, with the gear you've described I'd expect it to be l-o-u-d. There's a sticky on ear plugs. Check that out, for sure.

I'd recommend custom molded plugs over the off-the-shelf, as they'll likely seal better. (Been very pleased with the ACS Pro17 plugs.) ACS in NYC or London (and I think they just opened a branch in LA) will make custom plugs with either their own Pro attenuator buttons or with Ety's, from molds your local audiologist casts or your ear canal.

Lookee here: http://www.acscustom.com/us/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=102&Itemid=44

But in the meantime the Etymotic ER-20s or ACS Pacatos are better than nothing. (Note: the pic on that page of ER-20 off-the-shelf plugs is incorrect, AFAIK. The ER-20s look like the Pacatos, conical with flanges.)

Thanks for that info, there are some great products out there. I have some AlienEars, they're just the job, but somehow there's nothing like playing without those things in. Like condoms for the ears....

 

[CaptainWally]

Hmmm. Carvin could be a cool option here. Made in U.S.A. Good stuff. Great value.

$799 for a groovy 4x10 and 600W->4 ohm amp.

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[Ewo]

I have some AlienEars, they're just the job, but somehow there's nothing like playing without those things in. Like condoms for the ears....

FWIW, my experience has been the opposite. Uh...regarding ear plugs, that is...

Unplugged in a high volume environment (say 100 dB +), my ears feel too "full" to hear into the mix and pick out individual parts. With the ACS Pro17s the level is reduced but the mix unchanged (attenuation graphs available on that page), and I can hear more detail.

 

[James Copple]

Hmmm. Carvin could be a cool option here. Made in U.S.A. Good stuff. Great value.

$799 for a groovy 4x10 and 600W->4 ohm amp.

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I sent Carvin an e-mail asking what they could do, and I'm awaiting their reply.

 

[orangejulius3]

Hmmmmm... I can't find a bad review on the GK 412 Neo, and it's supposed to be reasonably light for it's power, just could do with some side handles. Perhaps I could find a way.

The GK NEO 412 is my favorite cab right now, especially for outdoor gigs. It's solid, loud, and decent weight for being a larger cab.

Ampeg PF800
GK MB800
Hartke LH1000

Great choices!
If you need warmth or compression, Ampeg.
If you need light weight or mid control, GK.