Or a C add 9 with a D in the root.
All harmony is fungible.
Context determines everything.
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Which modes should I use in the different chords?
- Thread starter Sigge
- Start date
Or a C add 9 with a D in the root.
All harmony is fungible.
Context determines everything.
Nice to hear back from you, Sigge! Are you enjoying the discussion that you started? Did you have a chance to listen to some of the songs that are being discussed? (Steely Dan, Herbie Hancock, etc.) Could you hear the slash chords in these songs? Has this conversation helped you with musical vocabulary and ideas for soloing?
Almost but not quite... you have "E Locrian" and "B Phrygian" reversed. It should be "E Phrygian" and "B Locrian."
Do you feel that this way of thinking (chords = modes) is helpful to you? If you see the notation "C/E" for example, which is the simpler/clearer way to remember it: that you are looking at E Phrygian, or that you are looking at a C chord with E in the bass?
I've checked with all the steps in every church mode and compared them to the diatonic steps in C major and C minor and concluded with this:
C (C Ionian)
C/D (D Dorian)
C/E (E Locrian)
C/F (F Lydian)
C/G (G Mixolydian)
C/A (A Eolian)
C/H (H Frygian)
Cm (C Eolian)
Cm/D (D Locrian)
Cm/Eb (Eb Ionian)
Cm/F (F Dorian)
Cm/G (G Frygian)
Cm/Ab (Ab Lydian)
Cm/Bb (Bb Mixolydian)
I was pleasently surprised that all church modes was needed to make it diatonic
Almost but not quite... you have "E Locrian" and "B Phrygian" reversed. It should be "E Phrygian" and "B Locrian."
Do you feel that this way of thinking (chords = modes) is helpful to you? If you see the notation "C/E" for example, which is the simpler/clearer way to remember it: that you are looking at E Phrygian, or that you are looking at a C chord with E in the bass?
Who,
re: Black Cow-
This sheet music is Effed Up! Many errors, both in bass notes AND chord changes, just on the 1 page you scanned. (I know you're not to blame....).
Just for example: on the lyric "...over now" - "...over" is an F#minor7, NOT Bminor7...."...now" is an Aadd2/C#, NOT C#minor7.
On "...out of here..." the chord change is NOT a Cmaj7 (they have an Effin' C in the bass!?!?), but is a Cmaj7/D or D9sus13 (they DO get it right a measure later...).
Whoever transcribed this should have their ears chewed off by Rabid Weasels, IMHO, and refund all monies paid for this Pile Of Dreck.
Sorry to go all "Jazz Police", but IMHO, this is Sacred Music.
NO WAIT!!! It's NOT IMHO - It IS Sacred Music!!!.
Thanks.
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tonemachine,
No Typos - the chord named C/F is written in a simplistic, shorthand manner that directs the keys or guitar to supply a C triad WITHOUT a C as the Root/Bass Note, as the Bass will be supplying an "F" beneath that C triad. The subsequent harmonic structure, and SOUND, is an Fmajor7(9) sonority, even though there is NO 3rd ("A") in the chord. The C triad is constructed using notes from an Fmajor scale, NOT from the notes in a C major scale. Please go to a piano and play/hear this for yourself.
Regarding the written chord "C/D" - the subsequent harmonic structure and SOUND is that of a "D9sus" - it has nothing to do, functionally, with the key of C, or as a functional C Chord - that is what makes it so confusing. It is only a coincidence that there happens to be a C triad spelled out. The C triad is constructed using notes from these notes of a D (Mixolydian) Scale - D E F# G A B C D. As bassists, we are always better informed when we can clearly see, hear, define, and anticipate Root Movement. More sophisticated musicians will always write D9sus, as it describes the actual, functional chord. Please go to a piano and play/hear this for youself.
You do bring up a very important point - the Notation and Nomenclature system of Jazz/Blues/Pop/Rock, etc., is a non-codified, non-universal, random, non-user friendly pile of ambiguity. It takes some degree of patience, study, experience, trial and error, and, especially, listening, to finally know "how would one know?".
In my teaching I "suggest" (REQUIRE) that students get to a piano and transform written/verbal information into SOUND.
Thanks for your time and interest.
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Thanks for the explanation and I will play it on the piano tomorrow. I'm sure it will sound nice, my big concern was the nomenclature ambiguity/non-standardization. Good to know that it would normally be written out as D9sus rather than C/D by anyone whose business it is to be writing notation.
I'm all about the SOUND, as you say. It's good that you remind people of that. I'm not at all worried about the rules of "good and bad" notes...I just wanted to make sure I wasn't totally misunderstanding something about notation. Thanks.
What's your favorite pick guard to use when soloing over C/D with your sunburst P bass?
Mods, when are we getting the "do not like" button so sensible people can easily hit a button to show trolls and time-wasters how unpleasant they are with their juvenile comments?
Not always.
For example, here is an excerpt from the musical Hairspray:
Guitar part:
Bass part:
I think that the F/G in measure 64 is functioning as a G9sus, especially considering that it resolves to the C in measure 65. But for whatever reason, the orchestrator elected to write it as F/G. So in practice, you see it both ways.
(I know, I know, you are not blaming me for all that "cr...y" transcription but that strange feeling from your comment still lingers inside of me.
)Now, let's just take that one measure with the following lyrics from your comment,
"...over now" - "...over" is an F#minor7, NOT Bminor7...."...now" is an Aadd2/C#, NOT C#minor7."
The biggest MISTAKE I see on that transcript is the bass note B instead of E, but...
Here comes that BUT with mambo4's, "All harmony is fungible."
First of all, I've listened carefully to that part this morning and I cannot accept your CLEAN F#minor7.
I cannot hear C# which is, kind of supposed to be with F#minor7.
I can clearly hear the following notes: A, D, F# (and MAYBE, B); therefore, I would write that chord as
D (A,D,F# - second inversion)/E, or D/E as your favorite topic = E9sus(4), but...
Bminor7 (third inversion) also has the same notes: A, (B), D, and F#.
As I've mentioned before, I suspect that there is that B in that chord; therefore, we can write that chord as:
D6(second inversion - A, B, D, F#)/E, or
Bminor7(third inversion - A, B, D, F#)/E,
just E11 - E, B, D, F#, A , or MAYBE
(in your F#minor7 case)
F#minor7(#5) (first inversion - A, D, E, F#)/E.
(or F#minor7(#5)sus4 - A, B, D, E, F#)/E
Anyway, the second chord, OF COURSE, must be one of the most "Steely Dan-nishly" Aadd2/C#.
(What about Asus2/C#).
P.S. About that messed up transcription.
Probably it would be a good idea to ask Ed Fuqua
about those publisher's transcription errors. How did they occur?
Ed knows a lot about it - He published his book with notation.
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(I know, I know, you are not blaming me for all that "cr...y" transcription but that strange feeling from your comment still lingers inside of me.
Now, let's just take that one measure with the following lyrics from your comment,
"...over now" - "...over" is an F#minor7, NOT Bminor7...."...now" is an Aadd2/C#, NOT C#minor7."
The biggest MISTAKE I see on that transcript is the bass note B instead of E, but...
Here comes that BUT with mambo4's, "All harmony is fungible."
First of all, I've listened carefully to that part this morning and I cannot accept your CLEAN F#minor7.
I cannot hear C# which is, kind of supposed to be with F#minor7.
I can clearly hear the following notes: A, D, F# (and MAYBE, B); therefore, I would write that chord as
D (A,D,F# - second inversion)/E, or D/E as your favorite topic = E9sus(4), but...
Bminor7 (third inversion) also has the same notes: A, (B), D, and F#.
As I've mentioned before, I suspect that there is that B in that chord; therefore, we can write that chord as:
D6(second inversion - A, B, D, F#)/E, or
Bminor7(third inversion - A, B, D, F#)/E,
just E11 - E, B, D, F#, A , or MAYBE
(in your F#minor7 case)
F#minor7(#5) (first inversion - A, D, E, F#)/E.
(or F#minor7(#5)sus4 - A, B, D, E, F#)/E
Anyway, the second chord, OF COURSE, must be one of the most "Steely Dan-nishly" Aadd2/C#.
(What about Asus2/C#).
P.S. About that messed up transcription.
Probably it would be a good idea to ask Ed Fuqua
about those publisher's transcription errors. How did they occur?
Ed knows a lot about it - He published his book with notation.
My Sincere apologies Who...
YOU ARE Correct - it is NOT F# minor7, but, it is E9(13)sus, or Bmin9/E...
I'm an Idiot...
Thanks, for your ears!
Also - I'm not fond of the Asus2....method of writing that chord, but I have seen it.
Thanks for your time and interest.
APOLOGIES FOR WHAT?
Thank you for your comments and explanations about those slash chords.
If I was composing a song with a C Major Chord, and specifically wanted the bassline to go a certain way, that's when I'd use Slash chords.
||: C C/B | C/D C :||
I want the following chords to happen (numbers are the octave-range):
||: (C3 G3 C4 E4) (B2 G3 C3 E4) | (D3 G3 C4 E4) (C3 G3 C4 E4) :||
The melody will repeat the notes: G4 F4 E4 F4. So you can say, "Hey, the F4 melody will clash with the E4 in the C or C/B or C/D chord." True, but I'm okay with that because it's still in the C Major scale. Now the thing is, if and when you play a C/B or C/D, that does not mean I want you to reinterpret that as another chord such as Dsus9, because I don't want a F#4 or A4 played at any time in my song. Now another person can go, then maybe you meant "Dm9add4omit5"... no, I didn't.
Or perhaps I wanted the melody to follow a totally different non-conventional scale: C4 C#4 F4 E4. Again, there's no C# in a Major Chord, and that's fine by me because I purposely wanted the notes clashing due to the specific sound I wanted. I still want the C Major Chord (G3 C4 E4), and the bassline following the C3 B2 D3 C2 pattern.
But hey, I could break the song down so every new melody note is a written chord but that gets unwieldy (D3 G3 C4 C#4 E4 - is what chord? Dsus9addmaj7omit5?). As I wrote before, anyone can music theory the crap out of anything, then totally miss the intent of the song.
||: C C/B | C/D C :||
I want the following chords to happen (numbers are the octave-range):
||: (C3 G3 C4 E4) (B2 G3 C3 E4) | (D3 G3 C4 E4) (C3 G3 C4 E4) :||
The melody will repeat the notes: G4 F4 E4 F4. So you can say, "Hey, the F4 melody will clash with the E4 in the C or C/B or C/D chord." True, but I'm okay with that because it's still in the C Major scale. Now the thing is, if and when you play a C/B or C/D, that does not mean I want you to reinterpret that as another chord such as Dsus9, because I don't want a F#4 or A4 played at any time in my song. Now another person can go, then maybe you meant "Dm9add4omit5"... no, I didn't.
Or perhaps I wanted the melody to follow a totally different non-conventional scale: C4 C#4 F4 E4. Again, there's no C# in a Major Chord, and that's fine by me because I purposely wanted the notes clashing due to the specific sound I wanted. I still want the C Major Chord (G3 C4 E4), and the bassline following the C3 B2 D3 C2 pattern.
But hey, I could break the song down so every new melody note is a written chord but that gets unwieldy (D3 G3 C4 C#4 E4 - is what chord? Dsus9addmaj7omit5?). As I wrote before, anyone can music theory the crap out of anything, then totally miss the intent of the song.
OR C/F could simply a C major chord that just happens to have an F thrown under it for voice leading reasons.
Without context, such assertions are suspect.
Since the discussion begins with modes of c major, It seems like quite a leap to insist the C major triad notes "come from" an F major scale, and somehow not "from" C major. In isolation, without a song wrapped around it, we can't make any assertions about about what scale the notes of C/F "come from", nor weather it functions as an Fmaj7(9)
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..., but that C/F chord sounds the same whether it functions as an Fmaj7(9) or not, at least to my amateur ears.
As an amateur musician, I have some trouble following you.
So much confusion in your comment.
Are the following, "|: (C3 G3 C4 E4) (B2 G3 C3 E4) | (D3 G3 C4 E4) (C3 G3 C4 E4) :||" chords or not. If so, are they major or minor?
Also, if your letters are chords, then you have a very busy harmonic rhythm.
Next, about your statement, "the F4 melody will clash with the E4".
As I understand, the melody - its notes - does not need to match the chord notes, and F in the melody could "survive C or C/B.
About your next statement, "if and when you play a C/B or C/D, that does not mean I want you to reinterpret that as another chord such as Dsus9, because I don't want a F#4 or A4 played at any time in my song."
Dsus(4) kind of implies NO F#.
With D9, you CAN omit the note, "A" = D, F#, C, E,
or
in the easiest "a la triad" way, I would interpret that D9 chord as D, E, A (the "R 9 5" formula), but...
Your expression about "I (don't) want you to reinterpret that as another chord such as Dsus9" clashes with my understanding about the sonority of those "C/D" type of chords, because you decided to write those "special chords" for some PURPOSE, and your purpose was that "strange" (or specific) harmonic sound.
Usually, people who use those C/D type of chords, they UNDERSTANDING why they are using that kind of chord.
Anyway, it's only my amateur opinion.
mambo4,
The chord spelled C/F, will not change its inherent sonic qualities, regardless of "context" or "function". It is worthwhile for the OP, (as a starting point), to be able to hear, especially out of context, the harmonic qualities implied and conveyed by just a triad and a bass note, "context/function" notwithstanding. In this case, there is strong aural evidence that that chord "C/F" shares a great deal of harmonic DNA with Fmaj7(9).
Do you hear it as something else?
My responses to the OP's question have been an attempt to have him begin to explore and consider the Vertical/Harmonic aspect of chord symbols, as he seems to be approaching chords and their names only from a Horizontal/Modal model, with little mention of harmonic content (a very large Pet Peeve of mine regarding "the Modal Approach").
Thanks for your time, interest and civility.
Don Kasper
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For what it is worth - I've stayed out of this string as I think the OP's understanding of slash chords is suspect. Not yanking a chain here just stating my opinion. The string is over 50 posts and I do not feel we are anywhere near answering the original question. Mambo4 comments, as usual go to the heart of the matter ......
I think the string started off confused and has stayed confused...... Probably best to move on to something else I think we are just compounding the confusion.
Of course IMO.
I think the string started off confused and has stayed confused...... Probably best to move on to something else I think we are just compounding the confusion.
Of course IMO.
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About your next statement, "if and when you play a C/B or C/D, that does not mean I want you to reinterpret that as another chord such as Dsus9, because I don't want a F#4 or A4 played at any time in my song."
Dsus(4) kind of implies NO F#.
With D9, you CAN omit the note, "A" = D, F#, C, E,
or
in the easiest "a la triad" way, I would interpret that D9 chord as D, E, A (the "R 9 5" formula), but...
Who...,
Here is how I was taught and how I approach chord symbol naming/writing and contents - a small sample:
D - (the notes) D F# A.
Dadd2 - D E F# A
D5 - D A
D7 - D F# A C
D7(9) - D F# A C E
D9(#11) - D F# A C E G#
D9(#11, 13) - D F# A C E G#B
Also - I DO use the major 3 in a Sus chord - for ex. D9(13)sus - the notes that I like are [D E F#G A B C D]. See my Maiden Voyage post earlier in this thread.
Thanks for your time and interest.
Dsus(4) kind of implies NO F#.
With D9, you CAN omit the note, "A" = D, F#, C, E,
or
in the easiest "a la triad" way, I would interpret that D9 chord as D, E, A (the "R 9 5" formula), but...
Who...,
Here is how I was taught and how I approach chord symbol naming/writing and contents - a small sample:
D - (the notes) D F# A.
Dadd2 - D E F# A
D5 - D A
D7 - D F# A C
D7(9) - D F# A C E
D9(#11) - D F# A C E G#
D9(#11, 13) - D F# A C E G#B
Also - I DO use the major 3 in a Sus chord - for ex. D9(13)sus - the notes that I like are [D E F#G A B C D]. See my Maiden Voyage post earlier in this thread.
Thanks for your time and interest.
I think it's a good idea. Let's move to slightly different slash chords:
From The Jazz Theory Book
By Mark Levine
Just kidding before my bedtime. Don't take it seriously.
The OP, Sigge, asked this:
It's apparent Sigge is just starting out. I'm sure he vanished 38 posts ago. Way over his head. We do enjoy beating that ole dead horse.
It's apparent Sigge is just starting out. I'm sure he vanished 38 posts ago. Way over his head. We do enjoy beating that ole dead horse.
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I meant, Dsus4, as "In Classical theory, a suspension refers specifically to the fourth", but
in Jazz,
"the major third is not an avoid note over sus chords. We can use it to great effect in our improvisations,
as D7(add 6) but over a G root: D7(add 6)/G = G7sus(add 3)."
