Who...,
Understood.
Yes. I agree, mostly.
Wouldn't Dminor7 (add6) over a G in the bass sound like a nice G7sus(add3)? A Beautiful Sonority, that is!
Thanks.
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Which modes should I use in the different chords?
- Thread starter Sigge
- Start date
Who...,
Understood.
Yes. I agree, mostly.
Wouldn't Dminor7 (add6) over a G in the bass sound like a nice G7sus(add3)? A Beautiful Sonority, that is!
Thanks.
For me, Music is the Sound, therefore,
that Dminor7 (add6) as C, F, A, B, D over G in the bass it's a real Beauty and has a different "tone" then
Dminor7 (add6) as D, F, A, B, C over G in the bass, or Dminor7 (add6) as D, A, B, C ,F over G in the bass
Anyway, it's just me.
Who....,
I was commenting on your original quote of " ...D7(add 6) but over a G root: D7(add 6)/G = G7sus(add 3).
That is a typo, isn't it? (Dmin7 NOT D7 which has an F# in it...Because, I was taught that a "D..." chord assumes and implies a Major 3rd, while a "Dmin" chord contains the Minor 3rd.)
Thanks.
I was commenting on your original quote of " ...D7(add 6) but over a G root: D7(add 6)/G = G7sus(add 3).
That is a typo, isn't it? (Dmin7 NOT D7 which has an F# in it...Because, I was taught that a "D..." chord assumes and implies a Major 3rd, while a "Dmin" chord contains the Minor 3rd.)
Thanks.
Here is a tune with a bunch of D9(13)sus with the major 3rd/F# in the melody starting at 0:33...
It does get a little more complicated, though.(!)
It does get a little more complicated, though.(!)
"I'm an idiot" x 3 times.
Thank you for your correction.
I need to be careful when I type during my bedtime.
Thank you.
Anyway, here is my point.
I did not start this thread, but I've participated in the discussion.
What really bothers me is this: SOOOO many TB members are spending soooo much money (and time) in all kinds of gadgets, cables, etc... just to SLIGHTLY (if any) improve that bass sound.
NOTHING WRONG WITH IT. It's good for the Bass Guitar Industry, but...
In a very interesting and "a must" discussion about the "slash chords", very (extremely very) few bass players are ready to go further and learn about it, explore it.
Here is my one more point.
In a "SOUND kingdom" - MUSIC, the majority of TB members suddenly become some kind of "MATHEMATICIANS", and DON'T pay any (almost any) attention to the most important thing in MUSIC - the SOUND.
I know in Jazz, you get a lot of choices of various substitutions but for my "amateur" pop bassist's ears, there is a difference in sound between
C (as C,E,G)/D,
C (as E,G,C -1st inversion)/D, and
C (as G,C,E - 2nd inversion)/D.
I'm not preaching, "You must learn theory", I'm just saying this,
get any keyboard and start listening to the intervals, chords the way they sound.
Make your OWN chord construction, your own, even "strange" chord progression. It does not matter what others could say, because YOU are creating YOUR SOUND.
(Just don't become some pure technical "mathematician" in Music).
Even if the WHOLE world laughs at your chord construction or your MUSIC, it's YOUR SOUND/YOUR MUSIC.
Let's take again that very simple and beautiful chord construction: C/F.
Yes, it has all the DNA of Fmaj7(9), but by writing it as C (as C,E,G)/F (in the bass), we can see that the composer/arranger wanted to OMIT that very IMPORTANT note, A.
Can you hear the difference between
"pure" Fmaj7(9) - F, A, C, E, G
and C/F - F with the C triad - C, E, G (the root position)?
Can you hear the difference if that C triad is (second inversion) G, C, E/F?
In my, narrow-minded opinion, those slash chords help the bass player get closer to the "bass-line as a second melody".
It helps me to discover new "shades" and "flavors" of something "it's just the bass plays a different then the root note".
Anyway, it's time to get back to more important things for the bass players like, "Can you hear the difference in sound when you use two difference cable brands?"
FWIW, a suspended chord does not, by definition, have the third in it. If you add a 4th to a major triad it is a '+11' chord, not 'sus(add3)'. The 'add3' as a descriptor is redundant because the 3rd is, as @iona bass said, implied unless otherwise explicitly omitted by use of the 'sus' identifier.
Of course you can use it in the melodic improvisation but it does not change the 'quality' of the underlying chord. That said, one should 'proceed with caution' and beware of using 3rds that are adjacent to any 4ths as the half-tone dissonance is not pleasant - it is better to add it in registers away from any lurking 3rds.
Thanks for your comment.
As I've mentioned before
"Dsus(4) kind of implies NO F#", but anyway, thanks for reminding me about it; therefore,
"A suspended chord (sus chord) is a musical chord in which the (major or minor) third is omitted, replaced usually with either a perfect fourth ( play (help. · info)) or a major second ( play (help. · info)), although the fourth is far more common."
Suspended chord - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I think Don has disagreed with me about that "omitting the third".
He looked at it from his Jazz musician's perspective:
Suspended chord - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"A jazz sus chord[3][4] or dominant 9sus4 chord is a seventh chord on the fifth scale degree of the key with a suspended fourth and an added ninth. Functionally, it can be written as V9sus4 or V7sus9.
You can have the third with a sus chord, the third being generally voiced above the fourth, though this is not absolutely necessary. An example of having the third with a sus chord would be to have the root doubled below middle C (C4), using G2 and G3, played with the left hand, and using the right hand (from the bottom up) middle C (suspended 4th), F, A, and B (the third).[5]
The dominant 9sus4 has a resolved rather than a major third and is called a sus4 chord rather than an 11th, though it may also be called a slash chord (G9sus 4 = F/G).[6] [G9sus4 = GCDFA = F/G = GFAC] It may even be written Dm7/G, which shows the merging of ii7 and V7.[3] Chord factors include 1-♭7-9-11 or 1-4-♭7-9, not 1-4-5 (a sus4 chord with no third).[7] Although the suspended fourth is not always scale degree down to a third, the note is still not usually notated as an eleventh because of the chord's function as a cadence point."
Also, from my previously posted link and a few snapshots:
key
"A huge misconception about sus chords is the mentality of avoiding the 3rd of the chord. This is simply not true. Just because the fourth of the chord is included in the voicing of a sus chord, does not mean that the third is an avoid note or even a “wrong note.” In reality, many pianists and guitarists even include the third of the chord in their V7 sus voicings.
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Also, I've mistyped Dm7 as D7 in my
"Dminor7(add 6) over a G root: Dminor7(add 6)/G = G7sus(add 3)" statement, and Don pointed to my mistake.
I think "NOW we know the rest of the story". Do we?
MalcolmAmos,
With all my respect, I've noticed that you are repeatedly posting a lot of (or maybe the same ones) quotations or videos of Sir James Paul McCartney.
Do you think young (a beginner bass player/musician) Paul would be interested in our subject or not?
Do you think young Paul was a "mathematician" or a "SOUND (as MUSIC) MAN"?
Now, let's imagine that you and young Paul are sitting in a Music Theory Class where the teacher and other classmates (including young PAUL) are engaged in an interesting conversation about "Slash Chords".
Would you start "bully" Paul (who later became Sir James Paul McCartney) ,
"Hey, Paul, enough of that s... It's way over your head". "Hey, TEACHER, stop beating that ole dead horse, let's change the subject"?
P.S. It's not what you say, it's WHAT OTHER PEOPLE HEAR AND HOW OTHER PEOPLE INTERPRET what you said. NOTHING PERSONAL among us, the amateur bass players and TB colleagues. Thanks for your participation in this debate.
I may have missed it in my ignorance, but I'm unclear why C/F would be considered Fmaj7+9, rather than Fsus2+7?
I've been sitting here playing Fmaj7, C, C/F and Fsus2 on a guitar, and it seems to me that C/F sounds most similar to Fsus2. There's only a semitone difference on a single note. Play Fsus2 as x-8-10-10-8-8. Change that to x-8-10-9-8-8, and you have C/F, don't you? I'm not hearing any implied third.
I've been sitting here playing Fmaj7, C, C/F and Fsus2 on a guitar, and it seems to me that C/F sounds most similar to Fsus2. There's only a semitone difference on a single note. Play Fsus2 as x-8-10-10-8-8. Change that to x-8-10-9-8-8, and you have C/F, don't you? I'm not hearing any implied third.
Your typed chord as "Fmaj7 +9" could be interpreted as Fmaj7#9.
We have a lot of educated musicians here; therefore, it's only amateur opinion.
1. Where do you see that "SUS2" on your guitar when you play, "Fsus2 as x-8-10-10-8-8" or
notes F (plus up) C, (plus up) , (up again) F, (up again) G (Hey, do you still want to call it SUS2?), and C.
Now, what is the interval between that first F and your G?
Just a short read about Slash chords and Polychords from
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
(pages 11 and 12).
From "Music Theory book for the Music Professional" by Richard Sorce:
"In Example 17–15, popular chord-symbol notation is illustrated for several types of upper-partial chords. These symbols are frequently used to facilitate quick interpretation of these often complex structures and, in many cases, to assure correct pitch content. It must be agreed that the appearance of a symbol such as B7/C is easier, quicker, and less likely to produce incorrect pitches than the symbol especially in the course of sight-reading."
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
(pages 11 and 12).
From "Music Theory book for the Music Professional" by Richard Sorce:
"In Example 17–15, popular chord-symbol notation is illustrated for several types of upper-partial chords. These symbols are frequently used to facilitate quick interpretation of these often complex structures and, in many cases, to assure correct pitch content. It must be agreed that the appearance of a symbol such as B7/C is easier, quicker, and less likely to produce incorrect pitches than the symbol especially in the course of sight-reading."
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Here is another interesting read about those Slash Chords (I know it's for the guitar players.)
(Once again, it's for those who are INTERESTED only)
The author CLEARLY indicates that,
"There are basically two types of slash chords: one is an inversion of the chord itself, this makes the bass note (notated on the right of the slash) the 3rd, 5th or 7th of the chord.
In the other type of slash chord, the bass note functions as the actual root of the chord. There is a gray area where these two types of slash chords overlap..."
Invalid Link Removed
(Once again, it's for those who are INTERESTED only)
The author CLEARLY indicates that,
"There are basically two types of slash chords: one is an inversion of the chord itself, this makes the bass note (notated on the right of the slash) the 3rd, 5th or 7th of the chord.
In the other type of slash chord, the bass note functions as the actual root of the chord. There is a gray area where these two types of slash chords overlap..."
Invalid Link Removed
Clearly I'm not an educated musician. I suppose the right notation then is Fmaj7(9). Okay.
So you appear to be saying that if I'd played that chord in the order F-G-C-E then it would be a sus2?
As a number of people have noted, context is important. If I saw a guitar chart with the chords in your example, I would voice them pretty much exactly as you indicate (I would probably include E3 in the first chord). I wouldn't consider the C/D in your example as a D9sus. Similarly, if I saw the progression C C/B | C/A C/G | FMaj7, I would think of those chords in the first two measures as a C chord with a descending bass line; I would not necessarily think of the C/A as an Am7 chord or the C/B as some sort of B lydian construct.
On the other hand, in the example I posted earlier, where the progression is C | Emin | Dmin | F/G | C, the F/G seems very much to me like it has a dominant function, and in that example, I think that the F/G is functioning as a G9sus. I don't think that is "music theorying the crap" out of the progression or missing the intent of it at all; it's simply recognizing what is actually happening with that chord in that progression at that moment.
Please leave that "I'm not an educated musician" out. We are all just the learners here.
(The PRO Forum is here: Ask a Pro! [BG] | TalkBass.com
You answered your own question, but I'd like to other, highly educated TB members to explain it in a better way.
Just in case, there is a very interesting web-site made by Toby W. Rush,
Music Theory for Musicians and Normal People
Music Theory for Musicians and Normal People
Check his vision about the "sus" chords:
http://tobyrush.com/theorypages/pdf/SP03suspensions.pdf
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I would name that chord "Fadd2, no3". I'm not a big fan of the "...sus2" terminology.
Gotta Go...
I find this quite condescending - it is not a question of mentality, but it does not surprise me that a jazz writer considers it as such. We appear to be trying to merge classical and jazz terminology. I have a classical background, but it does not prevent me understanding how the third might be used over a 'sus' chord and it is perfectly possible for me to fit jazz constructs into a classical framework. It is a shame that many jazzers are not prepared to do the same. At the end of it all, it is just music.
From the vast "ocean" of the Internet universe.
"Add2 means you add a diatonic second to the triad.
Sus2 means you omit the third of a triad/chord in favor of the second.
Cadd2: C - D - E - G
Csus2: C - D - G
Cmaj9: C - E - (G) - B - D
Cmin9: C - Eb - (G) - Bb - D
C9: C - E - (G) - Bb - D
Cadd9: C - E - G - D
Put the fifths in parentheses because with that particular chord they aren't necessary."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
- "Add" is only used when a note is added to a standard chord structure. (e.g. D9 add#11.)
- Suspended is only used to describe when 4 is in place of 3. No other note can be suspended.
- Chord symbols are not normally used to describe the voicing of the chords. The exception is guitar chord sheets for some pop lead sheets or student guitar books, which often have a voicing built into the spelling. (i.e. C2 or Dm7add2). This is not the same chord spelling the other players (piano, bass, instrumentalists) would see.
- 11th is a note that is an extension of the chord octave in sonority, but not necessarily in the voicing. Thus chordal 3rd and 4th can not occur in the same chord- 11 is to be used in stead. Hence, CEFG is always C(add11) no matter where the F occurs above the C (same as CEGF).
- There is no such thing as C add 4 or C add 2. That merely shows an attempt to use a chord symbol to explain a possible guitar voicing. The notation (staff and written pitches) takes care of the voicing
- While I'm at it, the typical other chord "mis-spellings" occur when a chord is spelled simply and then accidentals are added to change the quality of the chord. Common examples are Em7b5 instead of being correctly spelled as Eø7, and C7#5 which should be correctly spelled as C+7".
and more here:Invalid Link Removed
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I promise it's my last quotation about those "slash cords":
It's from "Harmony" by Alex Ulanowsky.
It's from "Harmony" by Alex Ulanowsky.
