Which modes should I use in the different chords?

[Sigge]

The OP, Sigge, asked this:


It's apparent Sigge is just starting out. I'm sure he vanished 38 posts ago. Way over his head. We do enjoy beating that ole dead horse.

I've read everything but I'm not sure how to reply to everyone. I posted three questions in three different threads and I thought one of them would get answered at best but two of the threads really hit off. I'm pleased with the replies I've gotten but I feel like most of them are starting to just repeat themselves

 

[Mushroo]

Returning to your original post, the one thing that really bothers me about your teacher's method is this:

...the one that surprised me was F/E.
I always thought that meant that I was supposed to improvise over Fmaj7 (Ionian) but they said that it was wrong and the correct scale to use was E Frygian.

In my opinion, a good teacher would not tell you "you are wrong" in this situation. Rather, a good teacher would explain that there are multiple options and get you to think about the musical situations why you might choose one option over another option.

F/E contains the notes F, A, C, E.

There are 2 different major scales that contain this set of notes: F Major and C Major.

So, using F Major (or F Ionian if you want to call it that) or using C Major (or E Phrygian if you want to call it that) are both correct answers depending on the situation.

If I were your teacher, I would encourage you to examine the one note that separates these two scales (Bb vs B natural) and hear the difference in sound when you use each in the context of the specific song. I would not say "you are wrong" but rather something like "that is not the answer I was thinking of; let's listen to how your answer and my answer might sound in different musical contexts."

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Here is a tune with a bunch of D9(13)sus with the major 3rd/F# in the melody starting at 0:33...
It does get a little more complicated, though.(!)

If I were to teach a lecture called, "Music as the SOUND kingdom", Alan Pasqua's composition would be my intro part with the following notes,
"Forget any "mathematics". Just listen to the sounds and let your subconscious to dictate the MOOD (not the MODE)."

As always, wonderful selection of MUSIC.
Thank you.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

... I feel like most of them are starting to just repeat themselves

Each and every response brings a slightly different "shade" on the subject.
My philosophy professor in college said, "The more "shades" you see/know about the subject, the better you understand it".

P.S. Let's say you are (ACCIDENTALLY) in a new city. You've never been there; therefore, you are asking everybody, "How could I get to X?"
You are getting various answers - some good, some not so good, some repetitious.
If it's ONLY one time deal, and you'll never be in that City again - who cares.
You were able to get to that X place, now just FORGET ABOUT IT, but...

If you start frequently going to that X place, then you probably need to learn more how to get there.

 

[Don Kasper]

FWIW, a suspended chord does not, by definition, have the third in it. If you add a 4th to a major triad it is a '+11' chord, not 'sus(add3)'. The 'add3' as a descriptor is redundant because the 3rd is, as @iona bass said, implied unless otherwise explicitly omitted by use of the 'sus' identifier.
Of course you can use it in the melodic improvisation but it does not change the 'quality' of the underlying chord. That said, one should 'proceed with caution' and beware of using 3rds that are adjacent to any 4ths as the half-tone dissonance is not pleasant - it is better to add it in registers away from any lurking 3rds.

Steve CS,
My ears and I find the voicing below very "pleasant", esp. the half-step between F#- G...as well as the half-step between B - C:
(D in the bass) then (starting with the B below middle C ): B C E F# G. I would write this chord symbol (voicing) as D9sus(13)add3, if the Melody contained the F#. The pianist would, of course, be free to reorder the pitches as they see fit.

A written chord symbol often implies the addition of, or the elimination of, certain additional extensions - In my world, I see, hear, play and like the sound of the Major 3rd in "Sus" chords. ( Example- I really don't care for the sound of the Minor 3rd in a Sus chord).
Thanks.

 

[Don Kasper]

Here is a question: how would you write the name of the 2nd chord of the chorus, (the chord that occurs @ 0:29, right after the "G..." chord), in Otis Redding's "Sitting on the Dock of the Bay"?
Or, what are the notes in that chord?

 

[Whousedtoplay]

If you don't like Em(sus2), let's call it Em(add2), but somebody could interpret it as Em(add9.)

 

[Don Kasper]

If you don't like Em(sus2), let's call it Em(add2), but somebody could interpret it as Em(add9.)

Who....,
I don't hear a G in the accompanying instruments, (although there is a G in the melody) - so, for the piano and guitar, I would write Eadd2 no 3 - only B, E, F#, in the voicing.
Am I (not) hearing things, again? Do you hear a G in that chord in the keys or guitar?
Thanks.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Who....,
I don't hear a G in the accompanying instruments, (although there is a G in the melody) - so, for the piano and guitar, I would write Eadd2 no 3 - only B, E, F#, in the voicing.
Am I (not) hearing things, again? Do you hear a G in that chord in the keys or guitar?
Thanks.

I'd say, G is more implied through the melody, not in the accompanying piano/guitar.
Maybe, E add 2 without the 3rd = Esus2.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Who....,
I don't hear a G in the accompanying instruments, (although there is a G in the melody) - so, for the piano and guitar, I would write Eadd2 no 3 - only B, E, F#, in the voicing.
Am I (not) hearing things, again? Do you hear a G in that chord in the keys or guitar?
Thanks.

I've found an interesting video, "Otis Redding - First Take - Sitting AT The Dock Of The Bay", and there is NO Esus2 chord.
It's a straight Emajor chord.
And it does not matter if the main melody includes the following notes - A, G, F#, E.

Which means, as Groove Master would say, "It's a perfect example of blues, guys" - major chord with b3rd in the melody", but...

When we use Esus2 (Emajor with added 2nd but minus 3rd - guess if it's major or minor) it, kind of, resolves that blues-ish" puzzle.

 

[Febs]

so, for the piano and guitar, I would write Eadd2 no 3 - only B, E, F#, in the voicing.

I would write B, E and F# as Esus2 or Bsus4, depending on whether I wanted an E or a B in the root. I think your nomenclature ("Eadd2 no 3") is unnecessarily long when the "sus2" convention already conveys the information you are trying to convey in a more concise manner.

 

[Don Kasper]

I've found an interesting video, "Otis Redding - First Take - Sitting AT The Dock Of The Bay", and there is NO Esus2 chord.
It's a straight Emajor chord.
And it does not matter if the main melody includes the following notes - A, G, F#, E.

Which means, as Groove Master would say, "It's a perfect example of blues, guys" - major chord with b3rd in the melody", but...

When we use Esus2 (Emajor with added 2nd but minus 3rd - guess if it's major or minor) it, kind of, resolves that blues-ish" puzzle.

Who....,
This version with the "Emajor" confirms for me, just how much I prefer the "Eadd2 no3". It, (Eadd2 no3), seems to support or allow "any" third major or minor to be sung. AND, it's a beautiful SOUND. (Yeah, there might be an "A" in that chord, as well. My ears are not that good...).
Thanks for your excellent research.
Don Kasper

 

[Don Kasper]

I would write B, E and F# as Esus2 or Bsus4, depending on whether I wanted an E or a B in the root. I think your nomenclature ("Eadd2 no 3") is unnecessarily long when the "sus2" convention already conveys the information you are trying to convey in a more concise manner.

So, does your use of "Esus2" imply NO 3rd at all in the chord? (I don't ever use that nomenclature). I was taught, and I practice, that any letter name assumes a major third - so "E" is a major triad, unless specified otherwise. ( I do use "E5" to notate only "E and B" in a chord, and I'll sometimes also specify "...no 3" to be even clearer. I don't sweat the addition of good information in a chord name, even at the expense of seeming "unnecessarily long".
Thanks.

 

[Febs]

So, does your use of "Esus2" imply NO 3rd at all in the chord?

Oorrect. I think it is common practice that "sus2" and "sus4" mean R 2 5 and R 4 5, respectively.

(I don't ever use that nomenclature). I was taught, and I practice, that any letter name assumes a major third - so "E" is a major triad, unless specified otherwise.

To my understanding, and in my experience, the "sus2" and "sus4" nomenclature does in fact specify that there is no third.

( I do use "E5" to notate only "E and B" in a chord, and I'll sometimes also specify "...no 3" to be even clearer. I don't sweat the addition of good information in a chord name, even at the expense of seeming "unnecessarily long".
Thanks.

So then, just out of curiosity, why use the "sus" notation at all? Wouldn't it be more clear to notate the chord as a major chord in the first place, and indicate "add 4"?

 

[Don Kasper]

Oorrect. I think it is common practice that "sus2" and "sus4" mean R 2 5 and R 4 5, respectively.

To my understanding, and in my experience, the "sus2" and "sus4" nomenclature does in fact specify that there is no third.


So then, just out of curiosity, why use the "sus" notation at all? Wouldn't it be more clear to notate the chord as a major chord in the first place, and indicate "add 4"?

Febs,
Because, in my system, Eadd4, describes the notes E, G#, A, B, (containing the major 3rd, along with the added 4).
I was referring only to "sus2", which I don't use. I DO use "sus(4)" to indicate the 4th in the chord voicing, with NO 3rd, although it is "assumed" that the major 3rd, (not the minor 3rd), might be used melodically.

So, assuming a bass note/tonality of "E", here are the notes specified in the chord voicings:
E G# B = "E"
E A B = Esus4
E G# A B = Eadd4
E F# G# B = Eadd2
E F# B = Eadd2 no3
E B = E5 (no 3)
E A B D F# C# = E7sus(9,13)
E A B D F# C# G# = E7sus(9,13)add3.

If I write a chord symbol that looks complicated or confusing, I'll sometimes also write the note heads in the staff, to be clear, and let the player rename it if necessary.
It's amazing how the many different systems and approaches have existed for so long, with NO standardization or consensus.
Thanks.
don kasper

 

[SteveCS]

...Oorrect. I think it is common practice that "sus2" and "sus4" mean R 2 5 and R 4 5, respectively.

To my understanding, and in my experience, the "sus2" and "sus4" nomenclature does in fact specify that there is no third.
So then, just out of curiosity, why use the "sus" notation at all? Wouldn't it be more clear to notate the chord as a major chord in the first place, and indicate "add 4"?

...Febs,
Because, in my system, Eadd4, describes the notes E, G#, A, B, (containing the major 3rd, along with the added 4).
I was referring only to "sus2", which I don't use. I DO use "sus(4)" to indicate the 4th in the chord voicing, with NO 3rd, although it is "assumed" that the major 3rd, (not the minor 3rd), might be used melodically.

If I write a chord symbol that looks complicated or confusing, I'll sometimes also write the note heads in the staff, to be clear, and let the player rename it if necessary.
It's amazing how the many different systems and approaches have existed for so long, with NO standardization or consensus.
...

The term 'SUS' is a throwback from early music where it means notes from a previous chord are sustained into the next one or where the major third is replaced with a 2nd or 4th in anticipation of the next chord - anticipated because the suspended note is part of the next triad. In all probability the notation would have been as much a stylistic instruction/direction aimed at an accompanist (think lute or harpsichord/spinet) as the harmonic definition it has become today.

One might argue that the sus notation should only be used IIF the 4th or 2nd are notes from the previous or next triad, otherwise the 'add' notation should be used.

 

[Don Kasper]

The term 'SUS' is a throwback from early music where it means notes from a previous chord are sustained into the next one or where the major third is replaced with a 2nd or 4th in anticipation of the next chord - anticipated because the suspended note is part of the next triad. In all probability the notation would have been as much a stylistic instruction/direction aimed at an accompanist (think lute or harpsichord/spinet) as the harmonic definition it has become today.

One might argue that the sus notation should only be used IIF the 4th or 2nd are notes from the previous or next triad, otherwise the 'add' notation should be used.

SteveCS,

Yes - I'm aware of the term SUS having it's origins as a Melodic/Horizontal description, which has since evolved to become a description of Harmonic/Vertical content in the Jazz Harmony vernacular.
I use it (SUS) ONLY in conjunction with and in reference to the "4th". This is how I was taught in school - that the "2" could added to the chord, but it did not have any bearing (either way) on the 3rd, while the use of the term "SUS" referred only to the 4th, and replaced the 3rd, more like traditional 4 part (SATB) (Bach Chorales, for ex.), as that SUS4 would eventually need to resolve to the 3rd- ( known as a 4-3 suspension, if I recall correctly).
Thanks for your time and interest.

 

[SteveCS]

SteveCS,

Yes - I'm aware of the term SUS having it's origins as a Melodic/Horizontal description, which has since evolved to become a description of Harmonic/Vertical content in the Jazz Harmony vernacular.
I use it (SUS) ONLY in conjunction with and in reference to the "4th". This is how I was taught in school - that the "2" could added to the chord, but it did not have any bearing (either way) on the 3rd, while the use of the term "SUS" referred only to the 4th, and replaced the 3rd, more like traditional 4 part (SATB) (Bach Chorales, for ex.), as that SUS4 would eventually need to resolve to the 3rd- ( known as a 4-3 suspension, if I recall correctly).
Thanks for your time and interest.

"Jazz Harmony Vernacular" - LOL.

That's it - the 'sus' almost invariably refers to the 4th in my book also, and it mainly resolves to the third of 'I' but can be a used to anticipate the root of 'IV'. I also agree with you (and do not generally the term) on 'sus2' - it is add2 or 9, with or without the 7th (but let's not do there). I think you and I are cut from similar cloth - taught the same stuff in the same way, so thank you also for your time and interest.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Febs,

E B = E5 (no 3)

You are consistent with your notation.

It's strange but for some reason we don't need to notate a sixth chord as C add6, when you add an extra note - the sixth above the root.

I doubt that it is very important to follow those "shorthand" chord notation rules because they are not written in stone.

I was taught the following:

et's look at Chick Corea's use of chord symbols:
From "Electric Band - Beneath the Mask"

 

[Whousedtoplay]

More about that sus with/no 3rd subject.

• C9sus4

This chord is an extended 9th chord with the 3rd replaced by the 4th (C-F-G-B♭-D). However, the major third can be added as a tension above the 4th to "colorize" the chord (C-F-G-B♭-D-E). A sus4 chord with the added major third (sometimes called a major 10th) can also be quartally voiced as C-F-B♭-E.
Chord names and symbols (popular music) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


About that add9(no3) chord notation:

From Reading Lead Sheets for Keyboard
By Jon Dryden

From "Contemporary Music Theory - Level One: A Complete Harmony and Theory Method"
By Mark Harrison

Observation: C2 is not a standard chord symbol, but it's often used (incorrectly) instead of Cadd2/Cadd9 (the chord on this page), or Csus2/Cadd9(no3).
Cadd9(no3) Guitar Chord