Which modes should I use in the different chords?

[Sigge]

I just returned from a bass course and I still have a few questions I didn't get answered, I'll post them in seperate threads cause they're very different. In this one I'll ask about which scales belong to different chords with a bass note that wasnt root.

They taught us what scales to improvise over for different chords, and the one that surprised me was F/E.
I always thought that meant that I was supposed to improvise over Fmaj7 (Ionian) but they said that it was wrong and the correct scale to use was E Frygian.

So I was wondering if anyone could tell me what scales to use in the different chords, to make it easy to understand I'll ask in C major.

C/D? C/E? C/F? C/G? C/A?

 

[Mushroo]

I think you are talking about a concept called "slash chords." This is a chord where a note other than the "root" is in the bass. So in all of your examples (C/D, C/E, etc.), the chord is C Major (C, E, G) and the note after the slash is the bass note. So those 4 notes (C, E, G, bass note) are going to be the most important notes or "chord tones" around which you can build your soloing/improv. The other 8 notes will probably sound best used more sparingly than the chord tones.

I would completely ignore the advice "they" (who are "they"?) gave you about soloing. It doesn't sound like very good advice (or, perhaps, it was good advice but poorly communicated). A better approach is to simply use your ears and learn some actual solos by your favorite musicians. Do you have any favorite players that you would like to be able to solo like them?

 

[Don Kasper]

I just returned from a bass course and I still have a few questions I didn't get answered, I'll post them in seperate threads cause they're very different. In this one I'll ask about which scales belong to different chords with a bass note that wasnt root.

They taught us what scales to improvise over for different chords, and the one that surprised me was F/E.
I always thought that meant that I was supposed to improvise over Fmaj7 (Ionian) but they said that it was wrong and the correct scale to use was E Frygian.

So I was wondering if anyone could tell me what scales to use in the different chords, to make it easy to understand I'll ask in C major.

C/D? C/E? C/F? C/G? C/A?

Siggge,
In general:
C/D - this is as shorthand way of indicating the chord D9sus. These notes would fit nicely- D E F# G A B C D.
C/E - this is a Cmajor7 chord, with an E in the bass, so : C D E F G A B C. (Also known as a 1st Inversion chord, meaning the Third (E) of the chord is in the bass, NOT the Root (C)).
C/F - is a shorthand way of indicating Fmajor7, so : F G A Bb C D E F
C/G - a Cmajor7, with a G in the bass, so : C D E F G A B C. (Also called a Second Inversion chord, meaning the 5th(G) of the chord is in the bass, not the Root C).
C/A - is a shorthand way of indicating Aminor7, so : A B C D E F G A. ( F# is often used instead of an F natural...)
Keep in mind that it makes more sense to hear each chord in the Harmonic context of a tune, so that you begin to hear how the previous chord led you there, AND (to what chord),"where" the current chord leads to next. It is difficult to study Scales, without studying Harmony, (and vice versa), IMHO.

Regarding the chord F/E and the 2 modes you mentioned - they are different by 1 note.
Here is F Ionian : F G A Bb C D E F
Here is E Phrygian: E F G A B C D E.

Thanks for your time.

 

[Mushroo]

To correct the misinformation in Iona Basses' well-intentioned reply:

C=CEG
C/D=DCEG
C/E=ECEG (yes, this is the "first inversion" of C)
C/F=FCEG
C/G=GCEG (yes, this is the "second inversion" of C)
C/A=ACEG
C/B=BCEG (yes, this is the "third inversion" of Cmaj7)

We simply cannot assume whether non-chord tones should be played sharp or flat, unless we have the musical context and/or know the composer's intent. Comments like "C/F indicates Fmaj7 so you should play Bb in your solos" or "C/A indicates Amin7 so you should play F# in your solos" in the absence of context are misleading, in my opinion. The much simpler "occam's razor" explanation is that it is a C triad (CEG) with the note after the slash as the bass note.

In any case, arguing about whether to play B or Bb over an F/E chord is inane: emphasizing either of these notes would probably sound bad, as both are a tritone from a chord tone. But either could sound nice as tension notes, Bb resolving down a half step to A, or B up a half step to C.

 

[Don Kasper]

"Funniest Thing Seen On The Internet, Today" (so far):
"...whether to play B or Bb over an F/E chord is inane: emphasizing either of these notes would probably sound bad, as both are a tritone from a chord tone."

I like the sound of a "B" in the chord F/E.
YMMV.
Thanks.

 

[Mushroo]

"Funniest Thing Seen On The Internet, Today" (so far):
"...whether to play B or Bb over an F/E chord is inane: emphasizing either of these notes would probably sound bad, as both are a tritone from a chord tone."

I like the sound of a "B" in the chord F/E.
YMMV.
Thanks.

Using the #11 in melodies/solos (like "The Simpsons" theme) can be a nice sound, I agree! But when learning to solo/improvise, I think a more useful approach than thinking in math/scales is to look at some actual songs by favorite players. So I would be very curious to hear back from the OP what are some musical influences. Maybe we can bring the conversation around constructively to actual songs.

 

[Don Kasper]

Her ya go: From a previous discussion of "C/D" or D9sus as used in "Maiden Voyage":

Who....., and Chuck,
I'd like to add to the conversation, noting that, ( when considering the D7(9)(13)sus chord), the Aminor7 is the "Dorian" Minor form of Aminor7.
The complete arpeggio, based on the A Dorian scale, then, is : A, C, E, G, B, D, F#,(A) with a "D" in the bass.

I hear that this chord DOES contain a "major 3rd"( F#) in the complete arpeggio ( when considering it as a "Xdominant7 " chord) - contrary to what both Mr. Kernfeld and Mr. Pellitier-Bacquaert have stated.
On "Maiden Voyage", for example, check out the use of the Major 3rd, F#, (on the D9sus) @ 4:12 in the trumpet solo...and the Major 3, A natural,( from C Dorian), on F9sus@ 4:19 in the piano, answering the trumpet...
Also, at 4:28 ( D9sus), in the piano solo - diatonic 3rds, using the A Dorian Minor ( containing F#)...
There is almost no utilization of the "Minor3rd" on a "X7sus" chord. ( During the piano solo, @4:48, there is a passing b3, but I think HH is voicing something other than an F9sus chord):



Thanks for your time and interest.

Also - regarding the chord written "F/E", this is NOT functioning or sounding as an F chord - it is a sonority bassed(!) on E and so the B is simply the 5th of that E chord, which BTW is a Dominant 7 chord containing both the b9 and and the Sus 4. It is very similar in function, sound and content as "Bminor7 b5/E".

I'm glad we're beginning to converse constructively.
Thanks.
Don Kasper

 

[Mushroo]

Hi Don, I agree with you, "Maiden Voyage" is a great song, and Herbie Hancock's solo could be studied as a textbook example how to solo over "sus" chords. But I would like to hear back from Sigge what are some of his favorite musicians and songs, so we are not confusing him with a lot of information that may or not be relevant.

 

[JTE]

It depends on the progression and context. An F/E can be what Iona bass says. But the context in which I see those kinds of things are to indicate a specific movement in the bass. E.G. F to F/E to Dmin7. They want that bass to go down within the scale so they indicate that it's and F (FAC) to FAC with E in the bass which goes nicely to the D root of the Dmin7 (DFAC).

Context

 

[Whousedtoplay]

They want that bass to go down within the scale so they indicate that it's and F (FAC) to FAC with E in the bass which goes nicely to the D root of the Dmin7 (DFAC).

Context

{The Bass} "goes nicely to the D root of the Dmin7 (DFAC)" and then to C with the same F (CFAC) and then to Bb major.

From my amateur perspective, I almost said (loudly) Fmaj7 Lydian instead of E Phrygian, in which case "B" sounds just perfect as Don said.
And from my (once again) amateur experience, the following chord, F/E (taken out of context) in 80% cases meant B not Bb.
(Maybe, it was much easier for me to play on the piano? Just kidding.)

Anyway, I completely agree with Don, aka, iona bass about "it is a sonority bassed(!)"
I think we spend WAY TOO MUCH time talking about Music as "mathematics" instead of
Music as
"vocal or instrumental sounds (or both) combined in such a way as to produce beauty of form, harmony, and expression of emotion."

 

[Don Kasper]

It depends on the progression and context. An F/E can be what Iona bass says. But the context in which I see those kinds of things are to indicate a specific movement in the bass. E.G. F to F/E to Dmin7. They want that bass to go down within the scale so they indicate that it's and F (FAC) to FAC with E in the bass which goes nicely to the D root of the Dmin7 (DFAC).

Context

JTE,
Yes. Great point. I agree that the context of the previous chord and the target chord (as well as the overall harmony) should be taken into consideration. In the example you provided, if the progression of the harmony is Fmaj to F/E to Dminor, then the F/E would be a 3rd Inversion "F"chord (i.e., with the Major 7 in the bass). Yes - the context should always be considered.
A common and, (some would say), stronger harmonic (root) movement would be : Fmaj to C/E to Dminor, so that the basic harmonic movement is F to C to Dminor or (In Roman Numerals) I to V(in 1st Inversion) to vi.
My initial response to the OP was based upon the freestanding (non-contextual?!) chord named "F/E". "F/E" could also exist and function as an "E"(b9sus4) chord, NOT as a passing chord from F to D.
Thanks for your interest and illumination (and civility).

 

[Don Kasper]

{The Bass} "goes nicely to the D root of the Dmin7 (DFAC)" and then to C with the same F (CFAC) and then to Bb major.

From my amateur perspective, I almost said (loudly) Fmaj7 Lydian instead of E Phrygian, in which case "B" sounds just perfect as Don said.
And from my (once again) amateur experience, the following chord, F/E (taken out of context) in 80% cases meant B not Bb.
(Maybe, it was much easier for me to play on the piano? Just kidding.)

Anyway, I completely agree with Don, aka, iona bass about "it is a sonority bassed(!)"
I think we spend WAY TOO MUCH time talking about Music as "mathematics" instead of
Music as
"vocal or instrumental sounds (or both) combined in such a way as to produce beauty of form, harmony, and expression of emotion."

Who...
Yes - when I played the F/E at the piano, the B sounded nice, the "Bb", NOT so much.
The "ears" (NOT the "ayes/eyes") have it!
Thanks.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

The much simpler "occam's razor" explanation is that it is a C triad (CEG) with the note after the slash as the bass note.

Many years ago I discovered that some composers/arrangers like to use "a C triad (CEG) with the note, D after the slash as the bass note", instead of Dsus4, or D7sus4, or D7sus4(9).
At first, all those chords, kind of, sound the same, but...
If you really listen to it," it is a sonority bassed(!)" thing.

 

[Mushroo]

In any case, arguing about whether to play B or Bb over an F/E chord is inane: emphasizing either of these notes would probably sound bad, as both are a tritone from a chord tone. But either could sound nice as tension notes, Bb resolving down a half step to A, or B up a half step to C.

In retrospect I misspoke to say "these notes would probably sound bad"... in reality there are always 12 "allowed" notes depending on context and composer's intent.

What I should have said was, there are chord tones, and there are non-chord tones. Chord tones are the "safe" or "allowed" notes, and improvisers must learn them, as they are the musical "home base." But the non-chord tones are what give music its tension and beauty, so they are the vocabulary that you want to study and learn to use when appropriate to the style. Rock vocabulary is a little different from blues vocabulary, is a little different from rock vocabulary, and so forth. Three bass players from three different backgrounds might look at D7 on a chart and play it with major 3rd, minor 3rd, or no 3rd at all.

I agree with all of the commentators above that B natural and F natural are two of my very favorite sounds in music. Personally I look at F/E and think "F Lydian" or "E Phrygian." Bb is more of a horn player's note, and I am relieved that modern jazz has drifted away from its application.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

(For entertainment purpose only)
Let's take Steely Dan's, The Last Mall.


Here is the sheet music with some of my highlights.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I agree with all of the commentators above that B natural and F natural are two of my very favorite sounds in music. Personally I look at F/E and think "F Lydian" or "E Phrygian." Bb is more of a horn player's note, and I am relieved that modern jazz has drifted away from its application.

About that Phrygian.
I know that you like Miles Davis.
Miles Davis and Gil Evans - Solea

 

[elgecko]

(For entertainment purpose only)
Let's take Steely Dan's, The Last Mall.


Here is the sheet music with some of my highlights.
View attachment 663088

Yes, you've highlighted passing tones.

 

[Don Kasper]

(For entertainment purpose only)
Let's take Steely Dan's, The Last Mall.


Here is the sheet music with some of my highlights.
View attachment 663088

Who...,
In the first 2 measures of the sheet music, on beat 4, they show a "Bb" as part of the bassline, but, to my ear, in measure 1, there are only 4 C notes and in measure 2, (on beat 4) I hear only C and a quick "G".
Also, in measures 11 & 12, the sheet music shows a "Cmaj9", but on the track, I'm not hearing ANY chord on the first 2 beats of those measures. I would write "N.C.", indicating that NO Chord is to be played on those 2 beats.
What do you hear in those 2 spots?
Thanks for your interest.
Don Kasper

 

[willbassyeah]

This is what my teacher told me, as long as there is no dissonance between the notes, it is fine to play any modes at a given chord structure... It means that you can run out off your diatonic scales as long as you know what the guitarist is playing.

if it is on C Maj... the chords will be:
C Maj, DMin, EMin, FMaj, GMaj, AMin, BMinb5

if guitarist play a 1-2-5-1 prog star from C which means: CMaj - Dmin - Gmaj - Cmaj
i could play a CIonian/CLydian/CMixoLydian to any other Min Modes to Any other Maj modes.

However, if the guitarist is using more complicated voicings such as 7/9, your options will be much more limited as now you need to ensure that the 7 you play is the same 7 as the chord.

example: Cmaj7, Dmin7, G7
For the C Chords, my modes will be limited to C Ionian/Clydian because CMixolydian has a b7 and you dont want that 7 to clash, hope i explain it well enough.

My best advice is to get a cheap looper/ EHX Freeze for practice and figure out what is right and wrong, again this is music there are some songs that do not even follow the diatonic scales but still sounds awesome if the chords and notes correspond to each other...

 

[Blueinred]

Man, this is so refreshing in place of P bass pickguard discussions. Good stuff!