Which Scale First?

[byacey]

I detected a hint of sarcasm in the original "trap for young player" comment, and interpreted it as a valid warning of something to be wary of; not something to be taken as gospel in the search for the one true path. Notwithstanding your very loud "listen up people", I stand by my interpretation. There is a lot more to fingering than the dogmatic 'i' on 1 for major and 'p' on 1 for minor if you want to avoid becoming boxed in.

YMMV

I'm not quite understanding this.

I'm for the most part self taught, and for all closed note scales I use finger 2 for the root, 4 for the second interval, 1st finger for major or minor third on the next string. Finger 2 for the 4th interval, 4th finger for the 5th, and on the next string, 1st finger for the 6th interval, 3rd finger for the 7th interval, and the 4th finger for the octave.

 

[SteveCS]

I'm not quite understanding this.

I'm for the most part self taught, and for all closed note scales I use finger 2 for the root, 4 for the second interval, 1st finger for major or minor third on the next string. Finger 2 for the 4th interval, 4th finger for the 5th, and on the next string, 1st finger for the 6th interval, 3rd finger for the 7th interval, and the 4th finger for the octave.

The box pattern that you describe is but one way of going about things, and is fine for many situations. What do you do if you need to go over 2 octaves or more? Where do you put the shift(s)? Do they give you problems? Do you consider how they interact with the rhythm and where they fall with respect to strong or weak beats, or other places where you maybe cannot afford a flub? Being bound to one fingering shape won't help you. That's just for starters.

 

[byacey]

The box pattern that you describe is but one way of going about things, and is fine for many situations. What do you do if you need to go over 2 octaves or more? Where do you put the shift(s)? Do they give you problems? Do you consider how they interact with the rhythm and where they fall with respect to strong or weak beats, or other places where you maybe cannot afford a flub? Being bound to one fingering shape won't help you. That's just for starters.

If I'm moving more than one octave, I usually shift after the 7th so I wind up on the octave with my 2nd finger again. There are all sorts of exceptions to this, but I try and keep to this pedagogy. Again, this is only for scales.

Usually when I'm playing I'm always trying to work within the arpegios of the individual chords, and /or logical chromatic / diatonic scale lines to tie everything together.

 

[GastonD]

Whichever way you look at it, learning music on your instrument will take some time and effort. That said, there are methods that make the work sink in better, in a systematic manner, with easier mapping on the instrument. Such as this one:
Based in Bass: Alien guidance

 

[lidl e]

All you need

View attachment 4838231

Sorry, i know zero theory.

Why does it say Modes of C major scale Nd then go C D E F G A B on the lefthand side?

Is it something to doxwith circle of fifths? Those arent 5ths though. Im confused.

Is the fngering the same for each mode in C?

Like is C in dorian 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
And
C in myolydian 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7

Does each root note in a mode, if it starts on the same note, follow that fingering?

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

Sorry, i know zero theory.

Why does it say Modes of C major scale Nd then go C D E F G A B on the lefthand side?

Is it something to doxwith circle of fifths? Those arent 5ths though. Im confused.

Is the fngering the same for each mode in C?

Like is C in dorian 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
And
C in myolydian 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7

Does each root note in a mode, if it starts on the same note, follow that fingering?

Modes of C Major Scale, from The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine.

 

[lidl e]

Modes of C Major Scale, from The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine.

View attachment 4891134

that lookslike the same thung, but not for dummies!

Let me studty, I can read music , even though i don't really,

cheers.

What does "avoid note" mean? Literally that?

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

that lookslike the same thung, but not for dummies!

Let me studty, I can read music , even though i don't really,

cheers.

What does "avoid note" mean? Literally that?

Yes, more or less, unless the dissonance or flavor of that note is what you want in a specific context, for whatever reason.

 

[SteveCS]

Sorry, i know zero theory.

Why does it say Modes of C major scale Nd then go C D E F G A B on the lefthand side?

Is it something to doxwith circle of fifths? Those arent 5ths though. Im confused.

Is the fngering the same for each mode in C?

Like is C in dorian 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
And
C in myolydian 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7

Does each root note in a mode, if it starts on the same note, follow that fingering?

A mode of a scale is the same notes but treating a different note as the 'home' or 'final'*. So the second mode of any Major scale is known n as 'Dorian' mode. In the case of C Major, the second note is D therefore the second mode is known as D Dorian. But the notes (pitches) are the same as in C Major. So D, E, F, G, A, B and C. If you look at the intervals from the Final (D), they are;

D>E: Major 2nd
D>F: Minor 3rd
D>G: Perfect 4th
D>A: Perfect 5th
D>B: Major 6th and
D>C: Minor 7th.

If you take that interval pattern and transpose down to make Final = C, you get C, E, Eb, F, G, A, Bb. If you care to look more closely you will see that these are the same notes as in Bb Major (Bb, C, D, Eb, F, G, A). So C Dorian is the second mode of Bb.

But to your question - my advice would be to try and divorce scales from fingerings. Most scales can be played in many positions and with a multitude of fingerings, so work in as many options as you can when running these things.

* Be careful referring to the bottom note as the Root. Root is the name given to the primary note in a chord, not a scale (e.g. in the C Major triad, C is the Tonic, from which the chord derives its letter-name). For most Major and Minor scales used in tonal music the first note is called 'Tonic', and for modes it is technically called 'Final', although tonic is also used interchangeably in some contexts.

 

[lidl e]

A mode of a scale is the same notes but treating a different note as the 'home' or 'final'*. So the second mode of any Major scale is known n as 'Dorian' mode. In the case of C Major, the second note is D therefore the second mode is known as D Dorian. But the notes (pitches) are the same as in C Major. So D, E, F, G, A, B and C. If you look at the intervals from the Final (D), they are;

D>E: Major 2nd
D>F: Minor 3rd
D>G: Perfect 4th
D>A: Perfect 5th
D>B: Major 6th and
D>C: Minor 7th.

If you take that interval pattern and transpose down to make Final = C, you get C, E, Eb, F, G, A, Bb. If you care to look more closely you will see that these are the same notes as in Bb Major (Bb, C, D, Eb, F, G, A). So C Dorian is the second mode of Bb.

But to your question - my advice would be to try and divorce scales from fingerings. Most scales can be played in many positions and with a multitude of fingerings, so work in as many options as you can when running these things.

* Be careful referring to the bottom note as the Root. Root is the name given to the primary note in a chord, not a scale (e.g. in the C Major triad, C is the Tonic, from which the chord derives its letter-name). For most Major and Minor scales used in tonal music the first note is called 'Tonic', and for modes it is technically called 'Final', although tonic is also used interchangeably in some contexts.

Amazing stuff. I will learn!

 

[Scot]

What does "avoid note" mean? Literally that?

I'm not really a fan of the term "avoid note" in this instance but I think the point is that those notes want to resolve to another strong note of the chord. An "F" note wants to resolve to an "E" when played against a C major chord. Same story with the "C" note against a G7 chord - the "C" wants to resolve to "B". If you just land on a big fat "C" note over, for example, a static G7 chord it's probably not going to sound great.

Not sure if jazz is your thing but, even if it's not, check out "Kind Of Blue" by Miles Davis. It's a clinic in modal playing. Listen to the tune "All Blues" and check out how the soloists use those "avoid notes". They use them but more as a tension and release thing or in passing. Also, check out Charlie Parker and other bebop tunes and solos to hear how they use the "avoid note" over a major chord.

Check out this line that Cannonball Adderly played in the opening of his solo on "All Blues":

Concert key is "G" but he's playing an Eb instrument, which is why it's written in the key of "E". Anyway, see how he plays the "avoid note" in bar 1. In bar 4 he plays another. Sometimes I hear those avoid notes as implying another chord. Playing a static Dom7 chord can start to sound a little stale so those avoid notes can spice things up by implying a V or other chord and then resolving back to a strong chord tone.

Check out the first bar of the melody to Charlie Parker's "Ornithology" ("How High The Moon" chord changes):

Notice how Bird uses that "C" (avoid) note over the Gmaj7.

I think I prefer "use with caution" note over "avoid note".

 

[lidl e]

I'm not really a fan of the term "avoid note" in this instance but I think the point is that those notes want to resolve to another strong note of the chord. An "F" note wants to resolve to an "E" when played against a C major chord. Same story with the "C" note against a G7 chord - the "C" wants to resolve to "B". If you just land on a big fat "C" note over, for example, a static G7 chord it's probably not going to sound great.

Not sure if jazz is your thing but, even if it's not, check out "Kind Of Blue" by Miles Davis. It's a clinic in modal playing. Listen to the tune "All Blues" and check out how the soloists use those "avoid notes". They use them but more as a tension and release thing or in passing. Also, check out Charlie Parker and other bebop tunes and solos to hear how they use the "avoid note" over a major chord.

Check out this line that Cannonball Adderly played in the opening of his solo on "All Blues":

View attachment 4891179

Concert key is "G" but he's playing an Eb instrument, which is why it's written in the key of "E". Anyway, see how he plays the "avoid note" in bar 1. In bar 4 he plays another. Sometimes I hear those avoid notes as implying another chord. Playing a static Dom7 chord can start to sound a little stale so those avoid notes can spice things up by implying a V or other chord and then resolving back to a strong chord tone.

Check out the first bar of the melody to Charlie Parker's "Ornithology" ("How High The Moon" chord changes):

View attachment 4891199

Notice how Bird uses that "C" (avoid) note over the Gmaj7.

I think I prefer "use with caution" note over "avoid note".

That is amazing
Im not big into jazz but i know the album and the tune very well, and i think i can hear in my head where they are using those avoid notes.

I will need to reread your post a few times, but thanks!

 

[SteveCS]

(e.g. in the C Major triad, C is the Tonic, from which the chord derives its letter-name)

I really don't like this editing time-out. @lidl e Of course this should say (e.g. in the C Major triad, C is the Root, from which the chord derives its letter-name). Apologies for the confusion. Serves me right for typing faster than I think and hitting "Post Reply" before I proof-read!! I know what I meant to say