Which Scale First?

[0LDn00b]

Thanks, Steve.

Dysfunctional 3rd finger was meant as a joke; I think thumb position brings it into use but those notes aren't practical on a 30" (Fender Mustang PJ). Shifty is likewise a pun.

I'm not rigidly married to 1FPF (which doesn't seem to be EITHER school). There are times when the music has you in 1 pos over a 3-fret span next to the nut. In that case 124 just makes more sense, and that's Simandl. My issue with Sim is the shifting. It almost sounds like you lean my direction on this shifting bit by suggesting I should focus on 1 pos. But in full-on Simandl that's only 3 notes per string, which, when sounded, my brain interprets as disjointed lurching.

In Rabbath 3rd pos where the frets are closer together, if I try to span 7-11 without a thumb pivot, it absolutely is painful acrobatics, especially before warming up. But if I can pivot it feels natural, and in this one position I can play scales. So there's the single pos you suggest, just not rigidly Simandl.

And Idk if anyone will cringe at this, or laugh, or what, but, I hold the BG with the neck a little higher than halfway between horizontal and vertical. If I strap in high and closer to horizontal I have to reach my right shoulder WAY back or my right wrist has this over-flexed chicken wing thing going on. THAT'S BAD. If I adjust the strap a little lower that all straightens out, but then the left wrist has to over-flex to fret the A string. If I bring the neck at a high angle I can actually fret notes without my tendons feeling like they're gonna snap, and my pluck angle changes so I get more of a DB piz thump, especially using Monel flats. (Thought about putting on tapes but that would put my sound too much in a box.)

I wanna play Haitian Fight Song, but crawl first right? So ANY musical scale within Rabbath 3, played with a metronome on all 4 strings with a stable hand/correct shape and keeping all the other strings muted without using any cheats like sponges, scrunchies, or felt strips from a $5 chalk eraser. Challenge accepted.

I'll look for videos that specifically discuss stability and verify I'm doing that part correctly.

 

[SteveCS]

...
on a 30"
....

As much as anything musical, Simandl, Bille, Rabbath etc are all methods of coping with the challenge of 42" scale. You might be better served by looking into 'cello fingering patterns. I know the tuning is different but the practicalities of spacing, scale and single-string play, i.e. handshape/posture, will be much closer to your 30" scale.

 

[0LDn00b]

cello

That's still a LOT of shifting. Actually I knew a cellist although he's gone now. IIRC, he didn't play in near that many positions. He basically had 2 or 3 positions before he got up to the knob of the neck. For everything else he pivoted, which is pretty much the same thing Rabbath does.

Here's the system I'll probably end up adopting.
1st pos, 1st finger on 1st fret, 2nd on 2nd, 4th on 3rd. (3rd finger could almost buddy-splint with 2nd finger in 1st and 2nd positions. Like literally tape them together in sports medic fashion, but only almost.)
2nd pos, 1st on 4th, 2nd on 5th, 4th on 6th.
3rd pos, 1st on 7th, pivot as necessary, 4th on 11th, 2nd and 3rd as convenient.
4th pos, 1st on 12, pivot as necessary, on a 30" I'll probably pivot all the way up to 19th/last fret.

Wow! I just noticed how far off original topic we've strayed. OQ was about scales before we got into positions. How did we get off to kama sutra?

 

[SteveCS]

That's still a LOT of shifting.
...

In practice it isn't a lot of shifting. I don't think I will ever fully understand the aversion that electric bass players have towards shifting. It is probably the weakest element of 95% of players' technique. it is almost like the bogey-man - some folks seem scared to death of it.

My advice, after nearly 40 years, is to NOT begin with the pivot technique, but learn stable fingering in all positions. With a 30" scale you can easily adopt the one-finger-per-fret approach, then add in pivots and crab-shifting as things become easier and smoother. But right now, handshape and clean stopping should be the objective.

...
Here's the system I'll probably end up adopting.
1st pos, 1st finger on 1st fret, 2nd on 2nd, 4th on 3rd. (3rd finger could almost buddy-splint with 2nd finger in 1st and 2nd positions. Like literally tape them together in sports medic fashion, but only almost.)
2nd pos, 1st on 4th, 2nd on 5th, 4th on 6th.
3rd pos, 1st on 7th, pivot as necessary, 4th on 11th, 2nd and 3rd as convenient.
4th pos, 1st on 12, pivot as necessary, on a 30" I'll probably pivot all the way up to 19th/last fret.
...

To be brutally honest I really can't see any good reason to impose such a restrictive 'system'. I understand the concept of 'economy of motion', but that will not be achieved here. What actually happens is you end up falling over yourself and getting pushed into positional corners by the senseless restrictions.

Imagine an F Major scale in your first position - easy : 1,4,0,1,4,0 2,4

Now move up one semitone to F# Major.

• The system dictates that you play the tonic F# with second finger at 1st position. Now, where do you play the Supertonic G#?
  
• The system prevented playing F# with 1st finger at second fret followed by G# with 4th finger and only allows G# in 2nd position with 1st finger. So you have to shift.
  
• Next note is A#, which according to the system can be played one of 2 ways: 1st position 1st finger or 2nd position 4th finger.
  • 2nd position 4th finger is tempting as it is 'in position', but is a bit of a cul-de-sac when looking forwards to B and C#.
    
  • 1st finger 1st position needs quite a hefty shift - down 3 frets and crossing one string with the same finger.
    
  • So much for a non-shifty system and we are only playing the first 3 notes of a major scale.
• Next note B
  • If you made the long shift down to A# then B with 2nd finger 1st position is easy.
    
  • If you went up to A# with 4th finger in second position you now have to shift - either to 3rd position 1st finger (7th fret) or to 1st position 2nd finger (2nd fret).
    
  • That second option involves a shift of 4 frets/1 string which is even bigger than the shift in the previous step and you end up on the 'wrong' finger because the next note C# will need yet another shift. According to the system, C# has to be played in 2nd position with 1st finger on 4th fret. The interval is a semi-tone but the hand movement is a full tone. If the system allowed B with 1st finger then C# with 4th would remain 'in position'.

I'll leave the rest to you to work out (I've tried and it isn't pretty), but I really do think you are setting off in the wrong direction here. Of course there are no hard and fast rules and you can/will do as you see fit, but IMHO the system proposed is too rigid and has little logical, musical or physical reasoning behind it.

It is worth bearing in mind that most players when playing actual music (rather than scales and exercises) will work out and use fingerings to best fit the line, not to comply with an arbitrary scheme or system.

YMMV

 

[SteveCS]

...
but, I hold the BG with the neck a little higher than halfway between horizontal and vertical. If I strap in high and closer to horizontal I have to reach my right shoulder WAY back or my right wrist has this over-flexed chicken wing thing going on. THAT'S BAD. If I adjust the strap a little lower that all straightens out, but then the left wrist has to over-flex to fret the A string. If I bring the neck at a high angle I can actually fret notes without my tendons feeling like they're gonna snap
...

Here I would say you are 100% on the right track. Who really cares what it looks like? A relaxed stance with smooth gentle curves and nothing over-extended that allows easy and open access is exactly what you want, and for this you need to fit the bass to your own body proportions - where it ends up and how it looks is nobody's business but yours.

 

[IamGroot]

If I was starting again, I'd focus my efforts on nailing chord tones (I iii V etc) for common modes rather than memorising individual chromatic scales per ce. This is because scale patterns on the bass fretboard are the same regardless of the key with all strings tuned in perfect 4ths (this includes 5- and 6-string basses)
Learning this way, you just need to know where your "I" (or "i") is - then find the triads.
Eg. Ionian (Major): I iii V, ii IV vi, iii V vii', IV vi I, etc...
The "trap for young players" is to wisely choose the fretting finger for the "1":
Middle finger = Major (Mixolydian, Ionian & Lydian)
Pointer = minor and diminished (everything else)
What you've said indicates a strong grasp of theory so I haven't gone into any detail about chord tones and the use if Roman numerals, but happy to direct you to some sites as there are plenty of resources out there.
(I understand the Doors did quite a few songs in Dorian which requires the most fretboard gymnastics of any mode).

Quote
The "trap for young players" is to wisely choose the fretting finger for the "1":
Middle finger = Major (Mixolydian, Ionian & Lydian)
Pointer = minor and diminished (everything else) UnQuote

Thanks for pointing out this key piece of information that often gets overlooked.
LISTEN UP PEOPLE.

I use the pinkie a lot which covers both the b3 and Maj3.

Also, understand that fingering technique beomes more critical if you play fretless. I recommend Jacos Method Book (and not his student that publishes a very similar book). Jaco's music may not be as popular today as it once was, but his technique is a very good foundation.

 

[SteveCS]

...
The "trap for young players" is to wisely choose the fretting finger for the "1":
Middle finger = Major (Mixolydian, Ionian & Lydian)
Pointer = minor and diminished (everything else)
...

...
Thanks for pointing out this key piece of information that often gets overlooked.
LISTEN UP PEOPLE.
...

I detected a hint of sarcasm in the original "trap for young player" comment, and interpreted it as a valid warning of something to be wary of; not something to be taken as gospel in the search for the one true path. Notwithstanding your very loud "listen up people", I stand by my interpretation. There is a lot more to fingering than the dogmatic 'i' on 1 for major and 'p' on 1 for minor if you want to avoid becoming boxed in.

YMMV

 

[IamGroot]

I detected a hint of sarcasm in the original "trap for young player" comment, and interpreted it as a valid warning of something to be wary of; not something to be taken as gospel in the search for the one true path. Notwithstanding your very loud "listen up people", I stand by my interpretation. There is a lot more to fingering than the dogmatic 'i' on 1 for major and 'p' on 1 for minor if you want to avoid becoming boxed in.

YMMV

This is a standard foundational approach to playing bass. Nothing says you can't move on once you master it, If you sight read professionally, this is one of the things that will be a life saver. BTW, I picked this up from Tommy Tedesco..

 

[George Dennis]

 

[BassChuck]

Actually a bit of a moot question. Since the bass is so pattern oriented, you can learn ALL the major scales by learning one pattern, same with any other scale formula.
The important thing is to learn the names of the notes in the scale, and thereby learn the neck.

 

[SteveCS]

This is a standard foundational approach to playing bass. Nothing says you can't move on once you master it, If you sight read professionally, this is one of the things that will be a life saver. BTW, I picked this up from Tommy Tedesco..

I don't think I ever said that it wasn't a valid or effective method, but it is far from universal. The problem is that too many beginner method books and teachers place far to much emphasis on it, with the common outcome being players get locked into boxes, are nervious of shifting and afraid to deviate. Without even stating it as an objective, the time-proven formal methods actually promote "any note with (almost) any finger in (almost) any position" right off the bat.

As I recall, Tommy Tedesco was a guitarist, not a bass player.

...
Since the bass is so pattern oriented,
...

That is true if you choose to learn and play it that way. It is rather unfortunate that most beginner 'Teach Yourself' method books also present that way and most beginners, by definition and through no fault of their own, don't know that there might be alternatives and so don't actually have a choice until it is (often) too late. The same pattern orientation could be levelled at any stringed isntrument, say 'cello or violin, but those tend to be taught using standard notation and actual music rather than TAB and page upon page of moveable scale/pattern-based exercises. By the time the patterns emerge in the minds of the 'cello or violin students they are a curious observation rather than a fundamental aspect of the method.

YMMV

 

[IamGroot]

I don't think I ever said that it wasn't a valid or effective method, but it is far from universal. The problem is that too many beginner method books and teachers place far to much emphasis on it, with the common outcome being players get locked into boxes, are nervious of shifting and afraid to deviate. Without even stating it as an objective, the time-proven formal methods actually promote "any note with (almost) any finger in (almost) any position" right off the bat.

As I recall, Tommy Tedesco was a guitarist, not a bass player.



That is true if you choose to learn and play it that way. It is rather unfortunate that most beginner 'Teach Yourself' method books also present that way and most beginners, by definition and through no fault of their own, don't know that there might be alternatives and so don't actually have a choice until it is (often) too late. The same pattern orientation could be levelled at any stringed isntrument, say 'cello or violin, but those tend to be taught using standard notation and actual music rather than TAB and page upon page of moveable scale/pattern-based exercises. By the time the patterns emerge in the minds of the 'cello or violin students they are a curious observation rather than a fundamental aspect of the method.

YMMV

Yes, Tommy Tedeesco was a session guitarist, possibly the most recorded in history. He put out a book called "For Guitar Players Only" way back in the 1980s for musicians that wanted to do session work. The chapters on sight reading covered the positions to put your hand based when sight reading new music so you didnt scuff up. Works for bass too.

 

[Don Kasper]

In practice it isn't a lot of shifting. I don't think I will ever fully understand the aversion that electric bass players have towards shifting. It is probably the weakest element of 95% of players' technique. it is almost like the bogey-man - some folks seem scared to death of it.

My advice, after nearly 40 years, is to NOT begin with the pivot technique, but learn stable fingering in all positions. With a 30" scale you can easily adopt the one-finger-per-fret approach, then add in pivots and crab-shifting as things become easier and smoother. But right now, handshape and clean stopping should be the objective.

1000% Yes.
This should be printed on the coffee mugs and merch sold here at TB.
IMFO, of course.
Thanks, SteveCS.

 

[IamGroot]

Don't navel gaze. Pick any one of your books that you like and learn it, slowly and deliberately, from start to finish. Then do the others one by one. Use a metronome. Also, do it without a metronome. Every moment you spend asking strangers on the internet which scale to start with is a moment you're not learning your scales. Lock the woodshed and start scaling.

Then come back and tell other people which scale to start with.

Spoken Wisely.

Books with scale methods I have enjoyed:

Simandl (Upright, can be adapted to electric bass)
Ray Brown's Bass Method (Upright, can be adapted to electric bass)
School of Agility (no longer own it)
John Patitucci's etude book - has both upright and electric fingerings
Jaco Pastorius Electric Bass Method. 1FPF and more.

I would describe myself as a 1FPF, but I am glad I studied Simandl and Ray Brown for shifting /open string insights.

I think I really learned fingering method when I got into Bach and Charlie Parker.

 

[IamGroot]

NOT all you need!

I'd very much include the harmonic minor and melodic minor scales in the round up.

And the Pentatonic minor

 

[Scot]

I would start with the major scales in this order: C, F, G, Bb, D, Eb, A, Ab, E, Db, B, Gb, F#, Cb, C#

- Learn the patterns with the lowest "root" note starting on your 2nd finger and then with your 4th finger. Start with 1 octave scales and then do 2 - ascending and descending.
- Learn to play each scale from the lowest available note on your bass to the highest and vice-versa.
- Learn to play each scale playing horizontally up and down each individual string. This is a great one as it will help you in making position shifts. Also great because you see the scale horizontally, similarly to playing a piano.
- Learn to play each scale in 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6ths and 7ths, ascending and descending. Then alternate ascending/descending and descending/ascending (e.g. for ascending/descending 3rds in C: C, E, F, D, E, G, A, F...etc).
- Learn to play triads from each note (e.g. for C: C, E, G, D, F, A, E, G, B...etc.). Do those ascending/descending.
- Learn to play 7th arpeggios (e.g. for C: C, E, G, B, D, F, A, C...etc.). Do those ascending/descending.
- Learn to play them using available open strings (particularly in open/1st positions) and then play them using no open strings if possible.

Major scales are a great place to start your scale journey.

 

[SteveCS]

OP appears to have disappeared! Obviously didn't like the advice.

 

[LetItGrowTone]

The advice I gave was so easy he just ran with it!

 

[0LDn00b]

OP appears to have disappeared! Obviously didn't like the advice.

You ASSume too much. As I stated in my last post, the question was about progression of difficulty in scales, not patterns and positions. But since it appears that there is no difference in difficulty, the question is answered and following this thread is pointless. Now to figure out how to unfollow a thread.

 

[SteveCS]

You ASSume too much. As I stated in my last post, the question was about progression of difficulty in scales, not patterns and positions. But since it appears that there is no difference in difficulty, the question is answered and following this thread is pointless. Now to figure out how to unfollow a thread.

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