Which Scale First?

[bassGtar]

I think @0LDn00b was making the point that he/she knows all the signatures and notes in all the keys but is just new to electric bass.

I wasn’t so sure that the Old Noob really knew as much as it said it did. It’ll know if it was a typo or an area to look into. I’ll admit I was confused by much of the post, and in the end it actually asked two questions: what order should thy be learned, an which are physically the hardest. Hopefully no harm, no foul on my part.

 

[bassGtar]

More than a few guitar based songs in E minor. But to your point, I don’t think they much cared about all the sharps…LOL!! Funny now that you mentioned it, I don’t recall a lot of horn accompaniment on them either….

Don’t want to derail the thread more than I have already, but E# minor is the relative minor to G# major (thus normally called F minor, the relative minor to A flat).

Em is definitely a great guitar key!

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Don’t want to derail the thread more than I have already, but E# minor is the relative minor to G# major (thus normally called F minor, the relative minor to A flat).

Em is definitely a great guitar key!

Good point!

 

[Ekulati]

Do people actually write music in the key of E#minor. Personally, I’d avoid keys with 8 sharps in the Sig, at least until later.

Seriously. If I could read scores in E# minor I probably wouldn't be on the net asking which scale to learn first.

 

[SteveCS]

I wasn’t so sure that the Old Noob really knew as much as it said it did.
...
Hopefully no harm, no foul on my part.

It is very difficult to tell from one post that includes a leg-puller, and maybe you had it pegged better than I. But yes - no harm, no foul.

 

[thewildest]

I’d learn to play the G Major scale across the fretboard, in all its positions.
Above a short a simple answer to the question.

The good news is once you know these positions, you will be able to discern the major scales of all the notes and all their modes just by moving up or down the fretboard….. but that’s a conversation to be had once you do the first part above.

 

[BobDeRosa]

I've looked at a few different method books and they don't seem to agree on which scale or key to learn first. I have a good grounding in theory (piano too many years ago) so reading in the key of Cmaj or E#min or anything between is a non issue for me.
BUT...
Doors - Riders on the Storm: Manzarek composed a bass line on the keyboard so easy my cat could play it, but Scheff had to go through "machinations" to play it on the bass.

So my question is, are any scales or key signatures physically harder to play on the bass or is this story more related to the shift between Emin and Amaj chords? Is there any rough consensus ranking scales from easiest to most difficult?

What the hell is E#min?

 

[KenD]

Why not Cmaj first and then the diatonic scales that are built from its scale tones.
Then repeat the same process but moving through the cycle of 4ths.

 

[thunesBARROW]

E#m is the saddest of all keys. Mach composed in it frequently.

 

[12BitSlab]

What the hell is E#min?

E#m is the key played by trumpet and tenor sax when all of the “C” instruments are playing in D#m.

Did you ever wonder why horn players aren’t too fond of guitar players (let’s play everything in E)?

 

[OldShark]

... Did you ever wonder why horn players aren’t too fond of guitar players (let’s play everything in E)?

I guess it's vice versa, playing in horn-friendly Eb or Bb isn't that fun for guitar players (and 4 string bass players like me) either...

 

[monkeyrs]

I'd prefer the scales without 'open strings', or play it on 5th bar.
The tone of an open string is different from that with a finger. Also the duration control is easier with finger.

 

[Slevage]

I was taught over 50 years ago by a great teacher. He played DB, but also played BG for convenience and because the local music store needed a bass teacher.

His approach was very musical. I learned scales via - no sharps, one sharp, two sharps……no flats, one flat, two flats….
ie around the circle of fifths.
Using no open strings, and READING in standard notation. I can jam on the classic rock tunes I grew up with and take jobs that require reading standard notation or playing off lead sheets with chords and melody only.

 

[Slevage]

I guess it's vice versa, playing in horn-friendly Eb or Bb isn't that fun for guitar players (and 4 string bass players like me) either...

Eb and Bb major are easy for us bassist because they can be played in 1/2 position (utilizing open strings).
Ab major or Db major present more challenges.

 

[Slade N]

Physically difficult or easier could depend on your posture, technique, and physiology…we are all built a little differently

 

[jtg]

I've looked at a few different method books and they don't seem to agree on which scale or key to learn first

Don't navel gaze. Pick any one of your books that you like and learn it, slowly and deliberately, from start to finish. Then do the others one by one. Use a metronome. Also, do it without a metronome. Every moment you spend asking strangers on the internet which scale to start with is a moment you're not learning your scales. Lock the woodshed and start scaling.

Then come back and tell other people which scale to start with.

 

[0LDn00b]

... so reading in the key of Cmaj or E#min or anything between ...

That is a gross typo. My apologies for the confusion. Should be C#Maj with 7 sharps, which coincides with A#min. How I did not catch that before now...

 

[0LDn00b]

So, after reading the entire thread, am I understanding that in the lute family one scale or key sig is no more or less physically difficult than another, but positions closer the nut require more stretch?

The stretch part makes sense. And if the physical difficulty is all pretty much the same I'll probably start with the scales I can make the longest runs with in 2nd and 3rd Rabbath. I mean, I figure the majority of us were born with 4 fingers and an opposable thumb on each hand so why not make the most of all that?

It makes me wonder if Simandl was just shifty or if his 3rd finger didn't function.

 

[MrLenny1]

Major scale

 

[SteveCS]

...
I'll probably start with the scales I can make the longest runs with in 2nd and 3rd Rabbath. I mean, I figure the majority of us were born with 4 fingers and an opposable thumb on each hand so why not make the most of all that?

It makes me wonder if Simandl was just shifty or if his 3rd finger didn't function.

Methods are evolving, Simandl is being legitimately challenged and yes some of the early stage exercises can be quite dull, but it has served the classical string bass players well for over 100 years, and continues to do so. As for the disfunctional third finger - if you decide to work through the entire Simandl method you will find the 3rd finger re-introduced into the method in higher positions. The Bille method primarily uses 3rd in place of 2nd.

The 34" electric bass scale is a good 8" shorter that your average string bass and has very few of the same physical challenges so effectively addressed by Simandl and others. Simandl/Bille are predicated on development of a stable hand-shape that promotes good tone and intonation in co-ordination with the bow. On the fretted electric bass, intonation and tone are largely de-coupled from the left hand, and there is no bow. But stable hand shape and assured secure shifting are just as important to the electric bass as they are to the string bass.

The concepts of pivots and crabs works very well with the electric bass - the shorter scale and the physical position of the instrument with respect to the body make it very natural and comfortable. The shorter scale also makes using all 4 fingers a practical proposition compared to the traditional DB methods. As I said earlier, stable hand shape and assured secure shifting are still important components of a good general technique. In the lowest positions, even on electric bass, the 4-finger handshape is comparatively unstable - try playing the first half of an F minor scale (F, G, Ab, Bb) with fingers 1, 3, 4, 1 without rolling your thumb, twisting your wrist or swinging your elbow.

So, with that said, I would recommend initially working on hand-shape stability in single positions until you develop strength and consistency using Simandl (1,2,4) or Bille (1,3,4) fingering, or a mix of both. But stick to the position. I would also suggest learning scales with traditional shifts (you will still need this skill) before adding pivots and crabs. And here is why - without good hand condition (i.e. physical fitness) there is a risk of long-term injury if you start with the full Rabbath gymnastics right off the bat. You need to understand what good hand-shape feels like in order to know when your pivots and crabs are pushing the envelope too far.

YMMV