Who agrees?

[pickles]

Well, I should say a good Fender-style bass. I can set a good example up to play as well as anything made, with just as much dynamic range (I actually find many of these basses to be more dynamic than most of the high end stuff). And good tone that sits well in the mix.

Wow them with your use of space, not your bass

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

What sort of pickups and preamp would go in this theoretical bass? As it is, I've never heard any sort of Fender or Fender clone that sounds like or has the same ability to show off the diversity of dynamics as AJ's Fodera, etc. Micheal Tobias came up the the JJ bass after Norm Stockton's request for a more limited jazz-like tone when he was with a band that needed that- he made a bass with specifically less dynamic range. I'm not saying that a Jazz won't work well in most situations, but I certainly wouldn't claim it has nearly the same dynamic capabilities as a lot of basses out there. And the only way you can set up even a good Fender to play as well as anything out there would require redoing the fretwork, replacing the bridge with a more adjustable one, and probably working on the nut, which is pretty much like getting a custom one made

Another (worse? ) example is a bad bass. I've done recordings with my old Samick 5-string about a decade back, and it sounded thin on some notes and thick on others. In general it did NOT sound good for recording, even though I liked it. You couldn't get a Fender to sound like that bass. You most likely wouldn't want to But if for some reason you wanted that weird sound and dynamics, you'd have to get a bass like that Samick to get it.

Mike Pope even said a couple weeks ago about Matt Garrison and Anthony Jackson, "And before you say that "Matt or Anthony would sound amazing on anything", (as many would) be aware that I know for a fact they would both emphatically disagree with you as well."

 

[NickyBass]

What I'm trying to say is that groove, note choice, dynamics, etc are the vectors on which a bassist should orient their artistic energy.

Right, and this can be done regardless if you play an inexpensive bass, or a custom. I chose to pusue it on a custom.

The thing is, when you don't have to worry about "producers" (and I use that term loosely ) or pleasing a pop diva/hero, then you can play what you like. I play mostly jazz, fusion and tango music. In these genres, the guys don't mind seeing different instruments and I don't mind bringing them.

I've done a few sessions, and have played a Fender on all of them. But, the bread and butter of my work allowed me to expieriment with different basses. If someone is hiring me, one of the first questions I'll ask is which bass to use. I don't deny that some people want the look or tone of a certain bass. Sometimes, though I'll get asked to bring a modern 5er. Most of the time, they just want me to play.

 

[stuntbass77]

As for the fender set up i have to disagree. It might take time but if you know what you are doing it is quite easy. Then again I am very handy and have built a bass or two from parts as well as epoxy neck job. I have alway been able to adjust from one bass to another; lots of time on some high action will help with that. The jazz cannot sound like a fodera this I will agree with. My problem over the years with higher end basses is that they sound really good soloed, but not as good in the mix. Just listen to the guys on youtube trying to play jamerson on a warwick; just sound off to me. My other basses do have a place however, but I like playing the jazz the most. I didnt always feel this way so for others I understand. Sadowsky to me would be the exception; then again they are really in many ways just a fender the way it should be made.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

As for the fender set up i have to disagree. It might take time but if you know what you are doing it is quite easy. Then again I am very handy and have built a bass or two from parts as well as epoxy neck job. I have alway been able to adjust from one bass to another; lots of time on some high action will help with that.

While it's great to be able to easily adjust to almost any bass, wouldn't that make your ability to judge playability less clear? It seems the best person to just the playability of a bass would be the players that are very sensitive/finnicky in the setup who have a hard time playing on any bass. Not that this would be a good trait to have really, but it's sort of like how the best food critics are the ones that can taste the different spices in things that most people can't.

 

[NickyBass]

My problem over the years with higher end basses is that they sound really good soloed, but not as good in the mix.

I think it all depends on the mix. In a crowded pop/rock mix, you might be right. In a mix with bandonean, piano, violin and drums everything changes.

I guess this is my point. Everyone is playing in a different situation that it's hard to be general sometimes.

 

[Sufenta]

Fenders can sound very good in a mix....in the right hands.....with the right engineer.....with the right band. But so can nearly any bass. A buddy of mine, reminds me a lot of MarloweDK's style and creativity, did a couple of albums with a beat up $100 pawnshop Hofner-copy and he made it sound incredible. He also did a few others with an early SR4 which were equally impressive. With all due (tremendous) respect for PT and his statement in the OP, there is nothing 'magical' about the brand-name Fender.

 

[spade2you]

Well, like I said: rock, funk, blues, raggae, R&B, some fusion but I'm not really a jazzer.

Basses: Pedulla, Modulus, Zon, MTD, Warwick, Spector, Roscoe, Ken Smith, and I'm probably forgetting some others.

Some "other" basses that have worked really well for me were the Guild B-302 in certain contexts (lo-fi rock), the kubicki ex-factor, and a fretless 5 I built with a graphite neck and poplar body. There were a couple of times the pedullas sounded good, but other times they were mocked and rejected by the artist (even when the engineer and I thought it sounded pretty good). I replaced the pedulla with an american standard P on one recording to thumbs up all around.

Bring a P or a J and things are going to work out. If you want to get progressive take a Stingray, Sadowsky, or Lakland and see if they like it. Better to have a Fender in the bag as well.

Ultimately, the bass you choose should not really be the way you're "expressing your artistic personality". Do that with your playing.

The thing about making blanket statements about custom companies is that there is custom variation, which is part of the point. Another thing to note is that a bass may sound "modern" with the EQ flat, but what can it sound like (provided the EQ gives you plenty of head room and the user knows how to utilize it)? The right frequency boosts, headroom, and some know-how can go a long way, as well as add a vast amount of dynamic range.

As Nickybass noted, a lot of things depend on what other people are playing, how many of 'em, and their range. While Leo's designs will get the job done, that doesn't always meain "nailing" it.

For Pedulla's, check out Robert Palmer's Simply Irresistable. It may seem odd, but that song might have done alright on the charts. Check out April Cope's Never Be Revealed, which features Michael Manring on a fretless Zon (as if we had to guess what he used ). Definitely not a Fender, but definitely nails it!

 

[Bass Viking]

You my friend missed the whole point. And points I don't wish to remake to someone who's not knowing my meaning from the start. Have a great day.

I didn't understand your post either. Care to elaborate?

 

[Bass Viking]

On another thought . . . I still play an electric just like a UB; horizontal.

Do you lie on your back with the upright bass on top of you?

 

[stuntbass77]

I will agree with spad2you's last statement. As for Bryan's; no. The best musicians I have meet really dont sit and worry too much about the action or other miner detail's. That is what pisses me off sometimes is watching these pro's in interviews saying that the set up on there bass is terrible. Saw one with Nathan Watts and he was talking about his high action. Jaco used to use P bass neck's with high action because it was exercise. As for my ability to tell the difference between a one off bass and production; you'll just have to take my word. I play guitar just as well as bass and just started on key's and am making leap's and bounds on that instrument as well. Given the time I feel I could be a really good drummer as well. Must people on this site I sure could relate. If most of use where honest we would agree that some of the basses we had in the past were more then likely a little bit advanced. What I mean is that if you have not mastered the four string moving to a seven is not going to be the answer. If need be I will direct people to web pages where they can hear me play guitar or bass

 

[stuntbass77]

Here ya go. I play guitar only on the one track (I did do two guitar tracks on that one), and on the other is a band I played with couple years back that is no longer around. I picked this one cause It is a style I am not as good at but liked how it came out (it has a nice riff about 7 second's in) and I am playing bass only on that one.

 

[stuntbass77]

Give me a minute it say's I have exceeded my file size. I will see what I can do. I shrunk them down to mp3 and still no go. Maybe they want me to be a supporting member.

 

[pickles]

What sort of pickups and preamp would go in this theoretical bass? As it is, I've never heard any sort of Fender or Fender clone that sounds like or has the same ability to show off the diversity of dynamics as AJ's Fodera, etc. Micheal Tobias came up the the JJ bass after Norm Stockton's request for a more limited jazz-like tone when he was with a band that needed that- he made a bass with specifically less dynamic range. I'm not saying that a Jazz won't work well in most situations, but I certainly wouldn't claim it has nearly the same dynamic capabilities as a lot of basses out there. And the only way you can set up even a good Fender to play as well as anything out there would require redoing the fretwork, replacing the bridge with a more adjustable one, and probably working on the nut, which is pretty much like getting a custom one made

Do you really think those basses have more dynamic range? I think it is just frequency response that you're noticing. And my point here is that in most mixes, you don't want that extra frequency response since you'll sit on top of other instruments, and miss out on filling the holes that a Fender is particularly strong in (the other players have left them there waiting for you). I would not want my bass to sound like an MTD or Fodera, per my original post on this thread. AJ got the same feedback according to an article I was just reading on him -- they asked him to bring his J-bass!

Fretwork is not expensive, and I can get a great setup with a stock bridge, no problem. Or if you don't want to deal, just buy a Sadowsky or a USA lakland.

 

[pickles]

The thing about making blanket statements about custom companies is that there is custom variation, which is part of the point. Another thing to note is that a bass may sound "modern" with the EQ flat, but what can it sound like (provided the EQ gives you plenty of head room and the user knows how to utilize it)? The right frequency boosts, headroom, and some know-how can go a long way, as well as add a vast amount of dynamic range.

As I said in my first post, many basses can be "massaged" into sitting in the mix. A great engineer can make any bass work. But do you carry one of those with you when you gig?

Edit -- from my original post:

Those "other" basses really do sound weird in the mix most of the time. There are exceptions, and other basses that can be great, but you really can't loose with a Leo design for rock, funk, blues, raggae, R&B ... any "band" music really.

IMHO/YMMV -- but those who disagree, I'd suggest opening your mind to the idea that a Fender might just sound best and give it a real try.

 

[pickles]

The thing is, when you don't have to worry about "producers" (and I use that term loosely ) or pleasing a pop diva/hero, then you can play what you like. I play mostly jazz, fusion and tango music. In these genres, the guys don't mind seeing different instruments and I don't mind bringing them.

That is the common reaction, but what I'm advocating is that bass players move past that reaction and really listen to what the mix is doing with the fancy basses vs. a great traditional bass. Those artists and producers are not being prima donnas, most of the time the trad bass really does sound better, and works better with the other instruments in the mix.

But you're also playing very different music than I am. Is the experimentation you're doing with your basses for fun (which is fine) or are you actually getting better sounds?

 

[NickyBass]

That is the common reaction, but what I'm advocating is that bass players move past that reaction and really listen to what the mix is doing with the fancy basses vs. a great traditional bass. Those artists and producers are not being prima donnas, most of the time the trad bass really does sound better, and works better with the other instruments in the mix.

But you're also playing very different music than I am. Is the experimentation you're doing with your basses for fun (which is fine) or are you actually getting better sounds?

To be honest, most of my fancy basses don't sound a whole lot different that my classic basses. They are just made differently. I have an alder bodied, rosewood board, passive single coil CB bass that sounds like a good Jazz bass. Maybe it exhibits a little bit more natural compression, but it's darn close and built impeccably. The workmanship on that bass is second to none.

What I like is playability. I'm not one to rag on Fenders--or any other bass for that matter. At this point, though, I'm digging the feel of my fancy pants basses. Even though I'm shooting for a more 'classic' tone.

I record everything that I do. So, I have a good idea of how my tone fits into the mix. Generally, though, I'm not competing for sonic space.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Do you really think those basses have more dynamic range? I think it is just frequency response that you're noticing.

Frequency emphasis is the only dynamic the physical bass can put out itself. But the electronics on (many) of those basses can pick up nuances that you can't pick up without them. If you express yourself with your dynamics, then using a bass that doesn't showcase them that well will limit your expression. As good as Jazz/Ps are, they aren't going to do a lot of that. Just as a bass that's designed to pick up all those nuances likely won't be able to have the thick sound of a Jazz that sits in a specific frequency range.

And my point here is that in most mixes, you don't want that extra frequency response since you'll sit on top of other instruments, and miss out on filling the holes that a Fender is particularly strong in (the other players have left them there waiting for you). I would not want my bass to sound like an MTD or Fodera, per my original post on this thread. AJ got the same feedback according to an article I was just reading on him -- they asked him to bring his J-bass!

That's making the mistake of thinking what you think sounds best is what sounds best to everyone. There's countless albums out there that I've heard where there's a P sitting right in it's spot that I completely dislike.

As for AJ, the article mentions Al DiMeola asking him to use his Jazz instead of his Smith, not his Fodera, and that was back in 1982. Jackson had several issues with the Smith, not his Fodera. And when's the last time you saw AJ playing his Fodera and not killin' it in the mix? AJ could easily get a Fender endorsement if he wanted it- the basses don't express the nuances his bass does or have the sound, so he doesn't. There's nothing wrong with liking either a traditional tone or a modern one. But it's faulty thinking to believe that because a traditional tone sounds better to you that it'll always work in a mix.

Fretwork is not expensive, and I can get a great setup with a stock bridge, no problem. Or if you don't want to deal, just buy a Sadowsky or a USA lakland.

I'll believe the comment on the stock Fender bridge when I see it, which I haven't in 13 years EDIT: Not that you can't get a good setup with a standard Fender bridge, but I haven't found one that works well holding small adjustments and I haven't seen one that can allow for string spacing adjustment. I had the chance to go through a bunch of Laklands and Sadowskys once- most had great fretwork, most weren't set up to my liking but I imagine they could have been set up to it or close to it, none had the dynamic range or tone of most of the basses I prefer. Which is cool- nothing wrong with it. They wouldn't sound like Jazzes if they did. But I won't pretend they did.

 

[HalfManHalfBass]

This is a very interesting thread and reminds me of a time long past here on Talkbass where people would exchange views and debate opinions without reprisal.

I think that maybe it IS due to having heard the classic sounds of a P, J, or MM for so long and their undeniable associations with particular genres of music, that WE as bassists choose to use these models in order to satisfty the sounds we hear in our heads or want to hear ourselves using in these particular types of music.

The average Joe Schmoe couldn't care less what bass is used and wouldn't notice any nuances other than maybe wrong notes or a bass player that is too loud....maybe!

I have owned all three types of bass and I like, and dislike them all for their inherent qualities, yet I KNOW if I were in a function band playing Motown that I WOULD personally WANT (as a bass player) to hear my fingers produce notes with the sound and warmth of a P Bass. It would make me feel authentic and inspire me to play in a way to suit and support the music, rather than play 'over it'. Again, when I play slap, or use more 'modern' techniques I would WANT to hear an active Stingray or active J bass with a hi-fi sound and maybe more frets.

Maybe without these years of 'audio conditioning' I wouldn't choose these particular models to achieve what I want to hear, but they undoubtedly exist now and each model provides the 'right for the genre' tone, instantly. For me, a one size fits all, super bass with combinations of P, J and MM pickups won't do it. But if money and space restraints were a deciding factor, one 'more versatile bass' may have to suffice.

I am happy that we as bass players have these vast choices but I also know that NO ONE but us, will ever give a damn about them. We play FOR the music, and if we can give ourselves a few options or incentives to be a little more creative or to inspire us along the way, then it's win / win for me.

With conviction and something to say, ANY brand of instrument can fulfil its part in any style of music. I just think that through association, certain models work better and more immediately for certain styles, giving US the authority and confidence to play 'within' that particular music style better.

 

[basscheez]

If you had to sum up the sound of a Jazz, Precision or StingRay in one or two words, what would you say?

"all different"