• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Who here plays low F#?

#42
Hi.

AlexanderB said:
T-Bird said:
"The .175 Warwick Dark Lord (harmonics ;)) comes through just fine, the "built in" LPF of a tube amp OT helps a lot in that."
A typo there, I guess? You mean HPF, right? Anyway, I'd like to hear that rig...
Click to expand...

Typo, yes, thanks for pointing it out :).
Edited it.

The rig is definitely nothing special, its inadequacies just work well with the bass I have.

I'd guess both TL606's and TL505's are as plentiful (and cheap) over there in Sweden, so relatively easy to put together a similar rig.

I haven't used any other pickups, or other F# tuned basses with it for that matter, but I'm sure that it would take a hell of a lot more amp power and cabs to make it sound louder.

In fact it performs better than most PA systems that go a lot lower.

I'm also blessed with reasonably sane band members ATM, not that much volume wars.



BassmanPaul said:
Being the crusty old fart that I am (#3 don'tcha know) if I drink enough beer I can definitely hit a low F# with ease!!!

My wife gives me me crap though when I do it in company!! :D
Click to expand...

:D, indeed.

Regards
Sam
 
#43
Find a copy of Flim and the BBs recording "Bicycle" It was the demo at many hi-fi stores back in the 1980s, partially for the extremely low bass notes and how clear and loud they were. Wore my copy out but I believe you can download it. I believe the lows go down to F# (not sure though).
 
#44
Fuzzbass said:
This argument is the same as the low B one -- only taken a fourth lower. ;) Response: there's a lot more to a musical note than its fundamental.

Yes, the low F# fundamental is roughly 23 Hz, which of course is difficult to reproduce or hear. However the 2nd and 3rd harmonics are 46 and 69Hz respectively, which are reproducible by decent preamps, amps, and speakers. Analog example: I play BEADG five string through a sealed 6x10 cab that starts rolling off above 40Hz. However even when I detune a half-step with my rock band, I can hear the lowest notes just fine: the fundamental frequencies are attenuated, but the 2nd and 3rd harmonics remain strong. Likewise, I believe a low F# note should sound plenty good enough through an Acme or other modern cab spec'd down to 30Hz.

That said: if you want to hear (or feel) that 23Hz fundamental, then yeah, you're going to have to jump through some hoops to get it.
Click to expand...
Cheers Fuzzbass i have often puzzled over the issues around extended range basses, but that would make alot of sense the 2 harmonic being the octave you are still getting the "root note" so to speak, it certainly changes my perspective somewhat, hmmm i might just go and mess with EQ settings for my 5 string!!
 
#45
The low F# 23hz is not hard to reproduce at all, one of the problems that a lot of people have with possibly not hearing is that their ear is not trained to hear it or they simply aren't able to naturally hear it..


Bass players should stop claiming that certain notes are not discernible when they are, specially with the help of modern technology.

Here's a track from my first solo CD called The Low C# where there are a few open C# and F# notes tossed in.

 
  • Like
Reactions: maestrovert and Fuzzbass
#50
F# isn't all that exotic - see the frequency chart at http://www.contrabass.com/pages/frequency.html - it's just unfamiliar to bass pkayers. It's 3 half-steps below the low A on an ordinary piano, and far higher than the 32' C of a big pipe organ.

Yes, reproduction is challenging, but why not try? :) A Carvin 2121 gets less efficient to below 30 Hz, but gets down to 20 Hz before its -10dB point. $499 plus shipping.

Also, the question isn't whether you're going to get a perfect F#: the question is whether you want anything at all below a B (or maybe A for the droppers).

Lots of people here seem to be pretty casual about $3K guitars, so let's assume we aren't limited to a tiny practice amp. I run a B2000 into a Big Ben plus a Basson 810, which gives me a pretty good B - but if I put an F# string on my 7, it wouldn't be too crazy to add a PA amp feeding that $499 Carvin. (A Danley 221 would be better, but at 480 lb it might be a bit much to haul around!)
 
  • Like
Reactions: maestrovert
#52
Mr. Foxen said:
The 23hz bit won't be heard. But that isn't what makes a low F#.
Click to expand...
Yup, there have been lots of posts about cab design goals and harmonics. There is more energy/signal/tone comming of the string at the first overtone (which is the same as the second harmonic) of 46Hz.

46Hz is also the low end design goal of many of the fEARful/FEARLESS cabs, I believe they are -3dB @ 46Hz, which is pretty stellar. CL400Peavey could check those numbers, he's more up on those specifics than me.

No amp or cab system is designed to be flat to 23Hz, not even -5. It would take too much amplification power, and too huge of a cab to be practical or affordable. Plus, 23Hz at stage volumes would be nauseating.
 
Last edited:
#53
ole Jason said:
Cab reproduction of the note isn't all that important if you're playing through a PA. I'd be interested in how well the notes can be heard through your run of the mill monitoring system. I would think FOH would be okay pumping out the low F# in most venues nowadays.
Click to expand...

Most PA systems for live music are designed to roll off in tbe 60~80 Hz range. No FOH engineer in his right mind would attempt or even consider operating his system down to 23Hz. Could be a plot for a re-make of Cheech & Chong's 'Up in Smoke'.
 
Last edited:
#54
Coolhandjjl said:
Yup, there have been lots of posts about cab design goals and harmonics. There is more energy/signal/tone comming of the string at the first overtone (which is the same as the second harmonic) of 46Hz.

46Hz is also the low end design goal of many of the fEARful/FEARLESS cabs, I believe they are -3dB @ 46Hz, which is pretty stellar. CL400Peavey could check those numbers, he's more up on those specifics than me.

No amp or cab system is designed to be flat to 23Hz, not even -5. It would take too much amplification power, and too huge of a cab to be practical or affordable. Plus, 23Hz at stage volumes would be nauseating.
Click to expand...

it can be done but it gets ungodly expensive very very quickly.

there are home theater junkies that are hitting 120db+ @ 10 hz. however, that's easily a 30k$ investment.
 
#55
subbasshz said:
it can be done but it gets ungodly expensive very very quickly.

there are home theater junkies that are hitting 120db+ @ 10 hz. however, that's easily a 30k$ investment.
Click to expand...
Home theater is not the same as live music. Even DJ systems are different than live music systems. So let's keep the discussion limited to live music systems so we're comparing apples to apples.
 
#56
Coolhandjjl said:
Most PA systems for live music are designed to roll off in tbe 60~80 Hz range. No FOH engineer in his right mind would attempt or even consider operating his system down to 23Hz. Could be a plot for a re-make of Cheech & Chong's 'Up in Smoke'.
Click to expand...

Nah it would be fine through the subs. Plenty of digital music will be pushing sub hits that low so it isn't that strange.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fat Steve
#57
ole Jason said:
Nah it would be fine through the subs. Plenty of digital music will be pushing sub hits that low so it isn't that strange.
Click to expand...

DJ/Club perhaps, but within limits, 35~40Hz perhaps?
Live music, unless it is highly comprised of synthesizer stuff, then no.

Your run-of-the-mill PA systems, whether for pre-recorded or live music, are not designed to run down to 23Hz.
 
Last edited:
#58
Get real!
There is plenty of PA rigs that are reasonably flat into the low 30s, if so required. Nothing above "SOS" (speakers on sticks) nowadays is rolled off at 60-80Hz.
Just have a look at contemporary, installed club rigs or PA from, let's say JBL SRX and better.
The fEARful is nothing to brag about if you run into a Pro Audio person. The 3015LF is a good woofer, but a sub it is not. Too high a Fs and Qts for that.
 
#59
Sounds like you have access to some pretty high end/cutting edge PA stuff. That's cool. Most places I venture into are a bit behind the times and have to make do with what's available. But 23Hz is quite a bit different than the low 30's. And 'reasonably flat' is undefined. Is that -3, -5, -10?

Regarding the fEARful, they are not designed to be a subwoofer. They are designed to be a bass cab. I now the Qts is a bit high on the 3015LF, but that is easily controllable with my FDeck variable HPF. Greenboy's design goal was F#0 which was all I was pointing out earlier. Not many other bass cabs out there can make that claim. fEARful, FEARLESS, Audiokinesis, BigE/MAS, and Acme come to mind.

But to be clear, there is no need for a bass cab, nor the PA that's covering the bass, to be able to faithfully reproduce the fundamental F#0 (23Hz) as the harmonic is where it's at.
 
Last edited:

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back