Who here plays low F#?

[Vince Klortho]

Again, leave hi-fi, home theater, or whatever you are into along with pre-recorded music out of the discussion. We all know it can be done, but we are talking about live music here. Can't compare apples to oranges.

You may want it left out but if you are someone who wants their music to be recorded and sound good when played back it is still an important consideration. Most mastering houses use HPFs (or just EQ) set at frequencies that are surprisingly high so even if you have a very strong low end on your final mix some of it is likely going to be lost in mastering.

One answer is to get a degree in engineering and/or acoustics, but that leaves one with between 50~100K of debt, then you still have to find a job in that field to pay it off.

I did both.

Or you can research the heck out of the topic like I did by reading, asking, more reading, more asking, designing/experimenting/building, talking to people in the business at events and shows, and after about the same amount of time as it takes to get a degree, you have learned the answer yourself.

I did that too and still do.

That fact is very, very few large sound systems are even allowed to play very low fundamentals. Most companies have limiters and HPFs in the signal path to prevent them from doing so because they often see the voice coils of their woofers getting spat out when it happens or they end up crispy [exaggeration]. In between bands I used to spend my time working for a sound company and we always used an HPF with a cut-off set at 40Hz and a slope of 24dB/octave. We often had bands with five or six-string basses and it always sounded great, even on the low B string or what ever it was tuned to. Actually, I have seen large systems with even higher settings on their HPFs, like in the 50 to 60Hz range.

One of the highlights for me was when we supplied the sound for Bela Fleck and the Flecktones. One of the coolest songs of the night was "Flight of the Cosmic Hippo." Victor played a solo on a fretless five-string that was just awesome with some great slides on the B-string. I heard the crowd going "ooh" and "ahh" from the chest-pounding they were getting. It was truly impressive. That was outdoors and the system had eight EV MT-4s for subs and each box had four 18s. Those boxes are rated for -3dB at 40 Hz and -10dB at 32 Hz. With that system the fundamental of the low B at 28Hz was not being reproduced very much at all but it still sounded great and was very tactile.

Before that company got its big EV system it used a custom-designed and home-built system that was tuned for -3dB at 30Hz. It had four subs with two 18s in each one and it sounded great. I really don't recall it sounding appreciably better in the low end than the MT-4s though. That extra 10Hz of extension just didn't pay off. As it turns out, the MT-4s with four 18s were actually in a smaller box than the home-built boxes were with just two 18s. This is because MT stands for "manifold technology" which describes the loading of the drivers. It is very efficient and compact. Much more so than the traditional loading with shelf ports of our home-built subs.

The point of all of this is if you want to reproduce fundamentals below E1 (41Hz) then you are most likely going to have to do it with your own on-stage equipment because very few sound systems can and even fewer are allowed to. There are some like those who use Danley subs but there aren't that many of them. Their subs can go really low and weigh between 150 and 600 pounds each. They are not cheap either but that's one way to do it.

 

[AlexanderB]

Where do you guys come from?

The "kickbox" EV MTL-4 is an ancient (like almost 30 years old) design and has been left in the backwater by LOW frequency reproduction competition since about 20 years. (And it was never very good even when new!) Look at the specs - it drops about 13 dB from 50Hz to 30Hz!
http://www.google.se/url?sa=t&rct=j...-oKYCw&usg=AFQjCNGKcdp6IiD2PQeyV6ytosg26Yax0Q

I have used other EV "Manifold Technology" gear for concert and playback events and if there is one thing they really do not do, it is deep bass. That seems to be the general opinion in the pro audio world as well. Good for kick/mid bass, not much else. Also quite prone to fire, as the voice coils a tiny compared to what is common today.

For people with reading comprehension issues, I repeat: JBL SRX 728 is a good example of a contemporary sub that hits lower 30s without processing, and does it loud and clear.

 

[El Raro]

I'm of the impression that more speakers, solid string tension and just enough dirt to bring out the overtones of the notes is enough to make those really low G's and F#'s pop out in a mix. Meshuggah is a pretty good example. They play in some super low tunings and their bass player seems to get away with dominating the mix with buzzsaw bass distortion.

 

[TerriblePeril]

Meshuggah's bassist tunes mostly in drop Bb. So his low B is down a half step, every other string is tuned up. So when the guitars ride their low F on the 8strings, he's playing the same pitch. When they play older material when they were using 7s, he plays his low B and is an octave below.

However I believe for Bleed he plays a 4 string tuned to C or something weird like that.

Search YouTube for Martin Rygiel (former Decapitated bassist) to see some ridiculous finger style playing and hear a great tone for metal bass stylings.

 

[El Raro]

Meshuggah's bassist tunes mostly in drop Bb. So his low B is down a half step, every other string is tuned up. So when the guitars ride their low F on the 8strings, he's playing the same pitch. When they play older material when they were using 7s, he plays his low B and is an octave below.

However I believe for Bleed he plays a 4 string tuned to C or something weird like that.

Search YouTube for Martin Rygiel (former Decapitated bassist) to see some ridiculous finger style playing and hear a great tone for metal bass stylings.

Makes sense actually. Explains why the bass is always so prominent in their more recent albums. I always chalked it up to lots of distortion and boosted mids but I imagine it would be difficult to compete with those 7 and 8 strings given the circumstances.

 

[Coolhandjjl]

........That fact is very, very few large sound systems are even allowed to play very low fundamentals. Most companies have limiters and HPFs in the signal path to prevent them from doing so because they often see the voice coils of their woofers getting spat out when it happens or they end up crispy [exaggeration]. In between bands I used to spend my time working for a sound company and we always used an HPF with a cut-off set at 40Hz and a slope of 24dB/octave. We often had bands with five or six-string basses and it always sounded great, even on the low B string or what ever it was tuned to. Actually, I have seen large systems with even higher settings on their HPFs, like in the 50 to 60Hz range......................

The point of all of this is if you want to reproduce fundamentals below E1 (41Hz) then you are most likely going to have to do it with your own on-stage equipment because very few sound systems can and even fewer are allowed to. There are some like those who use Danley subs but there aren't that many of them. Their subs can go really low and weigh between 150 and 600 pounds each. They are not cheap either but that's one way to do it.

Pretty much conventional wisdom. Exactly what I've been trying to say for pages.

Where do you guys come from?

Sorry we don't meet your standards.

 

[TerriblePeril]

Makes sense actually. Explains why the bass is always so prominent in their more recent albums. I always chalked it up to lots of distortion and boosted mids but I imagine it would be difficult to compete with those 7 and 8 strings given the circumstances.

Nolly from Periphery plays a 6 string Dingwall afterburner with a 175+ gauge low J# or whatever to play an octave below some of their 8string tracks. His tone is as you'd expect- super mid heavy grit, enough lows to be distinguished against the guitars but Periphery is one of those bands that really takes their time eq'ing the instruments to provide everyone their own sonic space with some overlap.

 

[AlexanderB]

Sorry we don't meet your standards.

It is not about "meeting standards", it is about accurate, fact based references. Referring (today) to what can be done with an EV MTL rig is as pointless as to referring to a 1988 Porsche 928 when discussing how to get around Nürburgring at a really quick pace. (Trade Marked "TalkBass car analogy.)

 

[Vince Klortho]

I clearly wrote MT-4 and I also wrote that its frequency response is -3dB at 40 Hz and -10dB at 32 Hz. That is factual information from their specification documents. The fact that they are not current technology means very little. Speakers with similar specifications are sold today and are used all the time. I do not consider it to be pointless at all since I hear worse and less low end than those provided at concerts all the time. For more often than I hear better low end actually.

I guess you missed the part about HPFs and their settings. Oh well. Not surprising.

 

[ThisBass]

For people with reading comprehension issues, I repeat: JBL SRX 728 is a good example of a contemporary sub that hits lower 30s without processing, and does it loud and clear.

Let's Have a look at the frequency response
https://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/JBL.SRX728S[1].pdf

 

[AlexanderB]

Vince, the EV MT-4 rig consists of an MTH (high) and MTL (low) section. Boxes can be "merged" or separate.

ThisBass, the cab is -3dB at around 33Hz, aka "low 30s".

Still, I am waiting for data on how much of the fundamentals that can (should?) be cut off, the slope etc, and some factual data on why it is BETTER to do so. Until solid facts are here, your opinions are just that; opinions.

 

[Obese Chess]

Nolly from Periphery plays a 6 string Dingwall afterburner with a 175+ gauge low J# or whatever to play an octave below some of their 8string tracks. His tone is as you'd expect- super mid heavy grit, enough lows to be distinguished against the guitars but Periphery is one of those bands that really takes their time eq'ing the instruments to provide everyone their own sonic space with some overlap.

Yup. That said, both they and Meshuggah just run preamps to the FOH, no issues with cabs not being able to handle the low frequencies. Though Nolly used to use Zilla cabs, two 6x10s with Celestion BN10-200S speakers as described here:

 

[TerriblePeril]

Yup. That said, both they and Meshuggah just run preamps to the FOH, no issues with cabs not being able to handle the low frequencies. Though Nolly used to use Zilla cabs, two 6x10s with Celestion BN10-200S speakers as described here:

True that. I suppose I could have kept typing to stay on topic (yeesh). For live reproduction of said brown sounds, of course there's fEARful if one needs a cab behind them, fEARless if you'd like the ability to use it as a wedge and I've heard and experienced nothing but good things about the line6 powered PA/monitor dealies.

I suppose I should add that freq response charts are available for squabbling over.

Edit: I am also interested in viewing a back-and-forth regarding large scale transducer rigs for all you guys with more experience than the other guy with live sound reinforcement. For me, good iem's and a small transducer give me exactly what I'm after and I do occasionally tune down to G and keep a clean, round sound when doing so- a la Devin Townsend.

 

[ThisBass]

Vince, the EV MT-4 rig consists of an MTH (high) and MTL (low) section. Boxes can be "merged" or separate.

ThisBass, the cab is -3dB at around 33Hz, aka "low 30s".

Still, I am waiting for data on how much of the fundamentals that can (should?) be cut off, the slope etc, and some factual data on why it is BETTER to do so. Until solid facts are here, your opinions are just that; opinions.

Frequency Response (±3 dB): 33 Hz – 220 Hz

If you simulate the two drivers with a Vb of appro 400 liter than the reasonable -3dB points at around 40Hz.
It's possibe to reach 34 Hz -3dB with Vb = 600 liters. That's a bigger number of Vb than the cab outer dimensions take in.

Indeed it is a tricky thing to understand the 33Hz corner. The given spec is based on the term +/- which restricts the lowest frequency to a level of -6dB instead of -3dB.

Btw the simulation I did looks excellent all the way and predects the published response very well.

An active crossover set to 80Hz wipes away the +3dB response beyond 80Hz and than lets the 33Hz corner look like a pseudo -3dB corner. However this benefit is purchased by doubling the amp power, or alternative by doubling the number of subs.

How about 800 liters for Vb and -3dB at 30Hz?

 

[ThisBass]

Still, I am waiting for data on how much of the fundamentals that can (should?) be cut off, the slope etc, and some factual data on why it is BETTER to do so. Until solid facts are here, your opinions are just that; opinions.

If I was playing F# or similar stuff I'd try everything out by myself. The web is full of usefull apps. I'd download a tuneable steep filter (or something similar) and would try out how much of the Fundamental and/or Harmonic I need to feel happy. May be then I will ask a question to all the others.

 

[Coolhandjjl]

Everyone is forgetting the cost/benefit ratio for PA and the fundamental. Unless you are rigging up a deluxe stage for a 3 year stay of some big star in Vegas, most PA crews can't afford to buy the added power or different cabs needed. Venues only pay so much for PA support and if their present gear designed and high passed at 50, 60, 70, or 80Hz is getting booked regularly and making money, it is hard to justify another outlay of cash just because.

As a musician, fine, do as you wish, buy what you want. But the PA available is more closely tied to the bottom line.

 

[CL400Peavey]

Still, I am waiting for data on how much of the fundamentals that can (should?) be cut off, the slope etc, and some factual data on why it is BETTER to do so. Until solid facts are here, your opinions are just that; opinions.

The real argument for "dont shoot for the fundamental" is that electric basses are not putting out a ton of energy in the fundamental. When you hit a string, the signal produces is a series of the fundamental and harmonics above that. The majority of the energy is in the first harmonic and the other nearby overtones, very little is made up by the fundamental frequency.

There is some good discussion about it all here.

 

[Passinwind]

The real argument for "dont shoot for the fundamental" is that electric basses are not putting out a ton of energy in the fundamental. When you hit a string, the signal produces is a series of the fundamental and harmonics above that. The majority of the energy is in the first harmonic and the other nearby overtones, very little is made up by the fundamental frequency.

There is some good discussion about it all here.

As that thread shows, it just depends. Some basses put out tons of fundamental and some don't, and the amount often changes drastically with pitch. Even 20-30% of the total energy can matter a lot, or not at all, depending. And finally, the graphs I did in that thread have no vertical scaling and were mostly done in linear rather than log mode, which ended up confusing people more than helping them see the big picture. They are just pretty pictures, as I readily admitted at the time I did them. I don't do low tunings and have long since acquired cabs that fulfill my personal needs, and frankly, don't need the headache of revisiting, rehashing, and re-arguing. Next man up...Link Removed

 

[bassdude51]

I listened to a guy play a low F# bass on you tube and all that string did was flop around. An electronic keyboard would be the way to go for a clean low F#.

Yeah, I agree. Gotta keep in mind that most bass cabs struggle to produce the true fundamental of a low B let alone anything lower!

Even Acme cabs, which are about as good as one can get to produce the low B, does so at -6db under flat response.